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Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Maryjo on 6/16/2011, 1:56 pm

(((Donna)))) I hope your hubby gets a more complete answer for you when he takes June there. Did the vet say the kidney was adhered to the liver? That could be a birth defect, but I will yield to people who might know more.

I remember you posted a week or two ago about how he swelled up from a bug bite or sting and you had to take him in. Could that sting has hurt him internally in some way? Your husband could ask the vet that. I think that was the only thing different in Rupert's life lately.

Once you get the complete results, let us know. Donna, we're here for you.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Renee on 6/16/2011, 2:02 pm

Donna... your pain - it is so raw. I can feel it through these posts.

I don't understand what the autopsy revealed? Are they saying that for some unknown reason his organs started to hemorrhage? Was there any damage to his organs or some internal injury? How tragic to not know. I would think the kidney attached to the liver is just a defect, but not one that would cause spontaneous hemorrhaging.

Could whatever bit him have been toxic to his system?
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Snifter&Toddy on 6/16/2011, 2:05 pm

I hope your husband can get some more information from the vet tomorrow about what could have caused this. Hugs.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Rebecca and the Pugs on 6/16/2011, 2:52 pm

Donna-
A few years ago I lost Jewel, at the age of 7. She had suffered a severe anaphylaxic reaction, possibly to a bee sting. She was lethargic and I took her to my vet, by the time I got there, she was bleeding internally. They had asked if she had gotten into rat poison, but I knew she hadn't. She ended up needing Vitamin K injections and a plasma transfusion. She ended up spending a week in the ER. I had to carry an epi-pen with me because she had such a intense reaction. She ended up passing away two years later from complications from severe IBD and when the biospy came back, she had precancer cells on all of her organs they biopsied. I wonder if what Rupert had was similar to my experience with Jewel.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  LisaIzzyAggy on 6/16/2011, 3:01 pm

Donna wrote:and I fell completely responsible that I did not take him in sooner.

Please don't feel responsible. No matter what the reason was, Rupert couldn't have gotten better care than what you gave him. Hug
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  TxAllieGrl on 6/16/2011, 3:35 pm

LisaIzzyAggy wrote:
Donna wrote:and I fell completely responsible that I did not take him in sooner.

Please don't feel responsible. No matter what the reason was, Rupert couldn't have gotten better care than what you gave him. Hug

This is what I want to say too Donna. He knows you loved him, and you can't blame yourself. Awful things happen for reasons none of us can explain.


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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Maryjo on 6/16/2011, 3:51 pm

TxAllieGrl wrote:
LisaIzzyAggy wrote:
Donna wrote:and I fell completely responsible that I did not take him in sooner.

Please don't feel responsible. No matter what the reason was, Rupert couldn't have gotten better care than what you gave him.

This is what I want to say too Donna. He knows you loved him, and you can't blame yourself. Awful things happen for reasons none of us can explain.

What Lisa & Allie said... You took fantastic care of your pugs, and sometimes crappy stuff happens. No way could you have known.


Last edited by Maryjo on 6/16/2011, 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Mel on 6/16/2011, 4:15 pm

TxAllieGrl wrote:Awful things happen for reasons none of us can explain.

I was inconsolable when Jack died. I cried myself to sleep many nights. I know it seems impossible, but you WILL get through this. Rupert would want you to. And we will be here for you.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Pugsaunt on 6/16/2011, 4:47 pm

[quote="Maryjo"]
TxAllieGrl wrote:
LisaIzzyAggy wrote:
Donna wrote:and I fell completely responsible that I did not take him in sooner.

Please don't feel responsible. No matter what the reason was, Rupert couldn't have gotten better care than what you gave him.

This is what I want to say too Donna. He knows you loved him, and you can't blame yourself. Awful things happen for reasons none of us can explain.

What Lisa & Allie said... You took fantastic care of your pugs, and sometimes crappy stuff happens. No way could you have known.[/quote
Donna, I agree completely with Allie, Lisa, and Maryjo. You loved Rupert, and he knew it and loved you back. Please please don't blame yourself - there is no way that you could have known. You are one of the best pugmoms and pugfostermoms around. The liver is very fragile, and the adhered kidney could have torn it. Or it could have been an allergic reaction. I have come very close to dying a couple of times from allergic reactions and know how they can happen with no warning and can be delayed reactions. You gave Rupert and give Viv and your fosters the best care possible. This is not your fault. Honest. I am holding you in my thoughts and prayers.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  TNPUGMOMOF3 on 6/16/2011, 5:06 pm

Oh Donna, I can only imagine how I would feel if I was in your place and I know that I too would be torn in half. I can't offer much insight as to what could have caused this horrible experience, but you did what any of us would have done. You can't expect yourself to be "all knowing" no matter how much we'd like to be when it comes to matters with our pugs.

I just sat in my car on the way home last night after reading about this and sobbed. I haven't met you or Rupert, but I feel the loss like I had. We all loved that sweet, happy boy and I think it effected me as much as it did cause I have always thought of Rupert to be just like my Hanky. I know you don't want to live without him, but Viv really needs you too.... she is enough of a reason to heal. Her love will help heal your broken heart, I promise. I have only lost two dogs and one destroyed me, but even at the darkest times, my babies that were still with me could make me smile. I wish I could do something to lessen you pain.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Aussie Witch on 6/16/2011, 5:07 pm

Donna, the first thing ANY of us do when we lose a Pug unexpectedly and in tragic circumstances, is question what we could have differently; how we should have known; how we could have been quicker to react, how IT'S ALL OUR FAULT.... Donna, the absolute truth is if you had the most minute inkling that something was amiss and what was going on any earlier, you would have reacted then, but you didn't. You did everything that the most wonderful Pug-mother and carer could do. You did everything ANY of us would do. Blaming yourself is the first reaction but you have to push that thought away.

From all that you say, what was going on could not possibly be diagnosed without some serious diagnostic examinations. I simple external exam would not have revealed anything so serious. It is a horrible, heartbreaking tragedy that you could never have foreseen.

Donna, I know what you're going through right now. I REALLY do. This is the worst time and it will get better. You may not believe it can, but it does.

And I honestly feel June was sent to you right now for a reason. Especially with Viv accepting her. It's how I felt with Imi after Puck died.

I hope peace embraces you soon.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Saira on 6/16/2011, 5:11 pm

Aussie Witch wrote:Donna, the first thing ANY of us do when we lose a Pug unexpectedly and in tragic circumstances, is question what we could have differently; how we should have known; how we could have been quicker to react, how IT'S ALL OUR FAULT.... Donna, the absolute truth is if you had the most minute inkling that something was amiss and what was going on any earlier, you would have reacted then, but you didn't. You did everything that the most wonderful Pug-mother and carer could do. You did everything ANY of us would do. Blaming yourself is the first reaction but you have to push that thought away.

From all that you say, what was going on could not possibly be diagnosed without some serious diagnostic examinations. I simple external exam would not have revealed anything so serious. It is a horrible, heartbreaking tragedy that you could never have foreseen.

Donna, I know what you're going through right now. I REALLY do. This is the worst time and it will get better. You may not believe it can, but it does.

And I honestly feel June was sent to you right now for a reason. Especially with Viv accepting her. It's how I felt with Imi after Puck died.

I hope peace embraces you soon.

Rona said everything much better than I could. Please don't blame yourself, we all know how much you love your babies and how you would do anything for them. Sometimes life just isn't fair.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Renee on 6/16/2011, 5:17 pm

I have to agree with Saira here... Rona said it better than any of us could.

My husband has severe allergies, and it can cause damage in him for weeks after an exposure. Sometimes, the reaction can be delayed. It may be that whatever got Rupert when he was outside caused some internal toxicity that eventually caused his organs to bleed out. You may never know - but, you should know that you did NOTHING to cause any of this. You did everything right, that all of us would have done.

I think most of us on here have lost a dog one way or the other. The plain shock of this, being unprepared makes this that much more painful for you. No doubt about it - you were dealt the worst hand possible. This is not even remotely fair.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  pugasaurus on 6/16/2011, 5:21 pm

Please don't blame yourself, I think when they go so unexpectedly it is so much harder. Everyone else has so eloquently stated it, I don't really have anything else to add except that we're here for you. I remember how awful it was when I lost Nadine but it will get better. Hugs from Texas.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  northernwitch on 6/16/2011, 5:52 pm

Donna:
Not much to add, except to ditto the try not to blame yourself advice. It's almost impossible not to--it's a pretty natural response. But one thing I try to tell myself when I get into the "If only I'd done this or that" mind set is to remind myself that I'm not omniscient or prescient or as powerful as I wish I were. Some things just can't be predicted or prevented--and it sounds like that is the case with Rupert.

Not that Theo's death is similar--except that it came out of left field in terms of cause. I was all prepared for his heart to quit on him, but sure wasn't prepared for the seizures. And, like you, I spent (and still do) too much time trying to figure out what I should have seen or done, etc.

My vet gave me really solid advice when I asked her this week about what I should have done. She said "Blanche, death happens. It may not be our friend, but it's not our enemy either. Theo lived a great two years with you. Two years he wouldn't have had otherwise. And when he died--it was fairly quick as these things go and nothing you could have done would have prevented it. Nothing you could have noticed would have changed this outcome. Leave yourself alone and accept that death just happens. Sometimes death isn't the worst thing that can happen to a pet."

It was pretty blunt and kind of surprised me--but it's honest and it's truthful. It doesn't make the pain of the loss any better, but it does make me realize that some things I just can't impact--much as I want to.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  MommaJones on 6/16/2011, 6:12 pm

northernwitch wrote: She said "Blanche, death happens. It may not be our friend, but it's not our enemy either.
This is actually quite beautiful.

I think we all second-guess ourselves and wonder what we missed, what we could have done, what bargain we could make with -whatever-higher-power- you choose. I think that it's a perfectly natural response. I hope in time, Donna, you'll come to see that you did everything possible for Rupert. I'm so, so sorry that you're going through this.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Aussie Witch on 6/16/2011, 6:14 pm

northernwitch wrote:"Blanche, death happens. It may not be our friend, but it's not our enemy either. Theo lived a great two years with you. Two years he wouldn't have had otherwise. And when he died--it was fairly quick as these things go and nothing you could have done would have prevented it. Nothing you could have noticed would have changed this outcome. Leave yourself alone and accept that death just happens. Sometimes death isn't the worst thing that can happen to a pet."


I cannot imagine wiser words to be spoken about the heartbreaking loss of a beloved pet.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  northernwitch on 6/16/2011, 6:33 pm

Obviously, I don't know what the cause of the bleed out was, but I did think of hemolytic anemia and ITP. I've only dealt with these two diseases once with Maisie, but I think I remember hearing that IMHA (Immune mediated Hemolytic Anemia) and Thrombocytopenia can have sudden and severe onsets.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Cathy on 6/16/2011, 6:41 pm

Donna, others have said it so much better than I ever could. Rona, Blanche and every other person is right when they've told you IT WASN'T YOUR FAULT. Take comfort in both Viv and June. I, too, feel that June was sent to you for a reason. I also hope your husband can get more information from the vet tomorrow. Take it one day at a time, one hour at a time, even if you have to one minute at a time. My heart and soul were torn out of me when Winston died, and I'm still trying to get myself together. There have been times that the one minute at time was the only way to get through things. Most of us have been through death at least once and while it hurts, it does get better. I have my kitties, and you have Viv and June. Love on them when you don't think you can live anymore. My kitties have absorbed a lot of tears in the past month and I'm sure Viv and June's fur can absorb your tears as well. Be gentle with yourself, what you've been through is an awful shock to you.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Not Afraid on 6/16/2011, 7:30 pm

Donna, I completely understand what you are going through. When I suddenly lost my cat, Jack to heart failure (at 7!) I was in shock for quite a while. He went from happy Jack to unrevivable Jack in under 3 hours. I questioned myself over and over, but there are things that go on with the body that we don't know about until they happen.

But, I'm also an information junkie. Somehow, understanding the WHAT and WHY of things helps calm my emotional response. After reading the posts above, I went searching for information about any connections between bee sting allergic reactions and internal bleeding. I found this:

Both wasp and bee venom contain three different toxic effects. The venom can paralyse components of the nervous system (neurotoxins), cause increase possibility of internal bleeding (haemorrhagic response) and destroy red blood cells (haemolysis).
Link:

It is bee season around here. It was this time last year that one of my clients' dogs was stung by a bee and when into anaphylactic shock while under my care. The dog came very close to dying from the shock alone. If Rupert's allergic response was a haemorrhagic response, it would make sense that you wouldn't see anything going on until his blood loss was too great.

Donna, whatever you do, do not think this was YOUR fault. You cannot protect ANY dog from freak things that happen unless you keep them in a plastic bubble. This was something that he was "hard wired" for and there was probably nothing you could do to completely protect him.

Grieve for the happy, healthy boy that you loved and lost, but don't blame yourself.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  sallyandtilly on 6/16/2011, 8:13 pm

No words of wisdom here, but I will keep you in my prayers. Hug
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Nan and BAGS on 6/16/2011, 8:26 pm

Ditto to what everyone said but let me stress it is so not your fault.

You are seriously one of the best Pug Mummy's I know. I mean, Aine wanted to go home with ya!Wink

Let the hubby talk to the vet... As Allie said and I do know this foe a fact... It does get better, these are the worst days .... and let it out! We are here for you Donna. *hugs****
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  ayleash on 6/16/2011, 10:57 pm

Nan and BAGS wrote:Ditto to what everyone said but let me stress it is so not your fault.

You are seriously one of the best Pug Mummy's I know.

much wisdom and love in the posts above... please keep putting one foot in front of the other... there is no way out but through, and you have much to do still in the world... Rupert would want it so.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  Puggered on 6/17/2011, 6:57 am

No words, just hugz.
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Re: Help me understand what happened with Rupert...please

Post  pugpillow on 6/17/2011, 8:33 am

Oh Donna, I so understand how you feel. When I lost Daisy-Bo suddenly in 2006, I was eaten up with guilt and grief. I even contemplated giving up pug fostering and pug ownership, thinking I was such a bad mom. But that is your mind trying to process something so horrible it can't absorb it properly. Once your mind has had some time to take in the loss, you will realize that you are not to blame and what will be, will be. There are no accidents or coincidences. Things happen how and when they are supposed to happen. The heart takes a little longer to heal than the mind, but it too will happen. I still mourn the loss of Daisy-Bo and remember her Gotcha Day and the day of her passing, but the memories have become happier over time as I remember the good times we shared. This will happen to you too about Rupert. It is normal to weep and rail and question. But this too shall pass and you'll be left with wonderful memories and his pawprint indelibly stamped on your heart.
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