Trainer Diagnosis

So last night was Julian's 4th week with the trainer. She said she observed a few things:
**I baby him
**I carry him too much
**He doesn't like to drink water so I bring a syringe (the kind at Walgreen's for kids meds) and give him water that way
**He has a fan wherever he goes
**He attacks my daughter's legs & we pick him up instead of putting him somewhere else/like his crate
**I should let him get as hyper as he wants to use the aggression energy that he uses to attack my daughter & if he passes out, oh well, he will recover

So its great that he can sit, twirl, and stay but....he will not stop barking constantly when my daughter is in the same room or car and he will continue to attack her unless I hold him n a leash, while he barks like a maniac!!!

I am at wits end; truly the family is stressed with his behavior...please help

Has Julian still been passing out since his surgery? And how old is your daughter? My kids were 9 and 5 when we got Matilda and they took part in the training and discipline too.

What did the trainer suggest for those behaviors? How old is he again? How much exercise is he getting? It does sound as if he has a lot of excess energy and is working it off in undesirable ways.

Like Lisa said, I'd get your daughter involved in the training/feeding. Have her start feeding him, and have her make him sit first before he gets fed. Make her give treats (again, sitting first).

It might be a good idea to get him used to clicker training, basically you reward good behavior (him sitting nicely, no barking, etc). I loved clicker training, it was just hard to do with 3!

Here are some links on it, but Karen and Blanche might chime in with more ideas.

http://dogs.about.com/od/dogtraining/qt/clickertraining.htm

http://dogs.about.com/od/dogtraining/a/clicker_capture.htm

Julian has had breathing spells, so to speak...he looks woozy and his gums lose the pink color so we get him to fresh air/fan air/AC immediately and syringe him with water before he completely passes out...the most recent was last Tuesday...its scary as sh!i bc he stops breathing. He has to be in a breezy area to be OK, I really think its something else...His nare surgery helped but it was not the end-all cure-all

My daughter is 10 and NOTHING is working, he constantly attacks her feet and legs and barks like a maniac at her and for her

@Saira:What did the trainer suggest for those behaviors? How old is he again?
How much exercise is he getting? It does sound as if he has a lot of
excess energy and is working it off in undesirable ways.

Like
Lisa said, I'd get your daughter involved in the training/feeding. Have
her start feeding him, and have her make him sit first before he gets
fed. Make her give treats (again, sitting first).

It might be a
good idea to get him used to clicker training, basically you reward
good behavior (him sitting nicely, no barking, etc). I loved clicker
training, it was just hard to do with 3!

The trainer said more exercise with all of us...He does not get much because I am a nervous Nellie with him overheating, he goes out on the leash to potty, walks up and down the yard and does his pugtonas and wrestling with the toy and chasing the tennis ball.....that's all the exercise

He is about 8 months old...I already know that he needs to exercise more but I am scared he will pass out, so how to fix that is the million dollar issue

My 10 year old does feed and train him and the clicker, we tried that first go round with the puppy classes then she stopped that bc she wanted a Dr note saying he wouldn't pass out or get sick....I will start the SIT first with my daughter and the exercise & treats for sit, well any suggestions are welcome but its so hard to make him stop biting once he latches on. The trainer has seen this behavior and said it may take a very long time

Has he been checked for an elongated palate or collapsing trachea? I am assuming so, since they generally check for that at the same time when/if they do the snare surgery but just a thought. Him passing out does of course make the exercise issue very tough.

We kept a leash on our pugs so that the kids could catch/grab them quicker when they were being a pest. They would either remove the pug to another room or tether them to something in the room so that they couldn't reach the kids/each other etc.

I've also been known to spray socks or shoes (or legs) with bitter apple and then the attack won't taste good!

I really think you need to get more veterinary input on the breathing issues. Has his palate been checked? His trachea? When, typically, do the episodes occur? You mention being worried about him using up his energy as suggested by the trainer in case this triggers an episode. Do they seem to be related to exercise?

I think that having your daughter feed him is a good idea. He needs to understand that she is senior to him and is not a chew toy. Joining a class but having your daughter handle him instead of you is something else to consider.

You also need to work on a plan of what to do when he goes for her and stick to it. If he likes getting picked up, then don't include picking him up in this plan unless it is obviously just in order to put him in a pen away from her. Hold him away from your body on those occasions so it does not seem like a cuddle. Suppose you decide to get a pen and put him in it for time out. Every time he goes for your daughter you, or she, should quietly pick him up and put him in the pen. I would not even bother saying anything, just give him a really disdainful look as if he were a piece of garbage. (I know it sounds really mean, but I have found that theatricals work quite well with my pugs). When he is in the pen, ignore him for a couple of minutes. If he is quiet and good then open the pen and let him out. If he screeches, leave him in the pen until he is quiet. You have to do this every single time he goes for your daughter. Without fail. If he tends to be mouthy with you I would discourage that also, by giving him the same treatment every single time you feel his teeth on you. Even if you know it was an accident.

At other times, work hard on alternative behaviours, because training is a really good way to tire them out. If he gets into a complete frenzy with your daughter I don't think starting off by requesting an alternative behaviour will work; he will be too hyper to concentrate. He needs to understand that biting your daughter gets undesirable results every single time.

I don't favour the approach of keeping him on a leash as he barks at your daughter; from what you say the restraint is escalating his reaction and you don't want that. So my approach (whether or not you use a pen) is to put him somewhere where you are not having to use physical restraint to stop him getting at her.

I recommend you choose an approach and stick to it. Don't be discouraged if it does not seem to be working initially. If you have been chopping and changing your approach too quickly Julian will know that he can continue his behaviour and even if he does not like the results it is bringing he knows that you will pretty soon give up and try another approach. I would give it at least a month before you even consider evaluating the approach you have chosen and changing it if there is no improvement at all.

Good luck.

I really think you need to get more veterinary input on the breathing issues. Has his palate been checked? His trachea? When, typically, do the episodes occur? You mention being worried about him using up his energy as suggested by the trainer in case this triggers an episode. Do they seem to be related to exercise?
They checked his palate and said it was fine at the time of his nare surgery and said they would check again at 1 year old. The episodes do not all pertain to exercise but most do...one time he was startled in his sleep, got up from his bed and fell out and his gums got so pale until we got him air, one time a strong smell on one of those grassy pee pads made him pass out, and the rest were exercise....I worry every second with him, I just have a gut feeling that there is something else I am not thinking of...
I think that having your daughter feed him is a good idea. He needs to understand that she is senior to him and is not a chew toy. Joining a class but having your daughter handle him instead of you is something else to consider.
She will start feeding him today with a sit first and I guess I will put his crate in the kitchen until he learns that biting is inappropriate...its the crazy barking that will be nervewreckng until he stops
You also need to work on a plan of what to do when he goes for her and stick to it. If he likes getting picked up, then don't include picking him up in this plan unless it is obviously just in order to put him in a pen away from her. Hold him away from your body on those occasions so it does not seem like a cuddle. Suppose you decide to get a pen and put him in it for time out. Every time he goes for your daughter you, or she, should quietly pick him up and put him in the pen. I would not even bother saying anything, just give him a really disdainful look as if he were a piece of garbage. (I know it sounds really mean, but I have found that theatricals work quite well with my pugs). When he is in the pen, ignore him for a couple of minutes. If he is quiet and good then open the pen and let him out. If he screeches, leave him in the pen until he is quiet. You have to do this every single time he goes for your daughter. Without fail. If he tends to be mouthy with you I would discourage that also, by giving him the same treatment every single time you feel his teeth on you. Even if you know it was an accident.

At other times, work hard on alternative behaviours, because training is a really good way to tire them out.
This is also our trainer's suggestion but he does have to be attentive and not nuts with barking
If he gets into a complete frenzy with your daughter I don't think starting off by requesting an alternative behaviour will work; he will be too hyper to concentrate. He needs to understand that biting your daughter gets undesirable results every single time.

I don't favour the approach of keeping him on a leash as he barks at your daughter; from what you say the restraint is escalating his reaction and you don't want that. So my approach (whether or not you use a pen) is to put him somewhere where you are not having to use physical restraint to stop him getting at her.

I recommend you choose an approach and stick to it. Don't be discouraged if it does not seem to be working initially. If you have been chopping and changing your approach too quickly Julian will know that he can continue his behaviour and even if he does not like the results it is bringing he knows that you will pretty soon give up and try another approach. I would give it at least a month before you even consider evaluating the approach you have chosen and changing it if there is no improvement at all.
Thank you for all of this, the crate is now in the kitchen and my daughter is ready :)

I'm getting ready to head out the door, but I'll post more about this later. I agree with Bella, tethering him may escalate the behavior. And the first thing I ask a client when they are having a problem with your dog, what do you want the dog to do instead? I am not there at your household and don't know about the activity level at your house, but some alternative behaviors would be "sit calmly", "watch me" or "go to your mat".

It does sound like he's being rewarded for bad behaviors and why will he pass out if he gets too excited? And Bella is also correct in stating that obedience training is a great way to exhaust a dog.

I'll chime in more later on this evening and Blanche should be around soon too.

Have they checked his heart? Done chest x rays to look for any enlargement?

There is something wrong with him physically if after the nares surgery he is still passing out. I would have the heart checked and I would get a second opinion on all of it. I would not risk his health for sake of training.

It also sounds like he is being a spolied PIA cause he has been allowed to be, IMHO. In fact, he's been encouraged to be and decided he likes it! Can't blame him, I would enjoy getting away with murder and being spoiled while I do it! I am an only child after all....

Has he been like this with your daughter from the first meeting? Is it a learned behavior and them encouraged by your daughter, at least intially? We let cute puppies get away with bad behavior and think it's funny until they get older and we tire of the behavior.

Send him to me, my pack with straighten him out!

Okay--I'll see what I can add to this. Like Karen, it's a bit hard to know what's going on when I can't see it in the flesh, as it were, but for what it's worth, here's my advice:


So last night was Julian's 4th week with the trainer. She said she observed a few things:
**I baby him: Babying can take a lot of forms--some good some not so good. I baby my dogs, but I also have expectations about behaviour and I'm consistent with those expectations. So figure out what your babying is doing or not doing in terms of his behaviour.
**I carry him too much: Is this because of the passing out? Carrying a dog can sometimes be reinforcing for bad behaviour and it can also encourage other dogs to try and leap on you to get to the "flying dog". And I have found a fair number of "carried a lot" dogs have significant issues with fear of other dogs (cause they get picked up every time a dog comes up to them) and jumping on people in an effort to get picked up.
**He doesn't like to drink water so I bring a syringe (the kind at Walgreen's for kids meds) and give him water that way: I don't actually know what to say about this one. I understand you wanting to keep him hydrated, but he also needs to be encouraged to drink. You might try (if you don't already) flooding his food with water or unsalted chicken stock--if he can tolerate chicken--to help keep his hydration up.
**He has a fan wherever he goes: What's the purpose of the fan? To keep him cool?
**He attacks my daughter's legs & we pick him up instead of putting him somewhere else/like his crate: You are probably reinforcing the behaviour by picking him up. I can send you some information on teaching bite inhibition if you'd like, but this can take a while and you need to be absolutely consistent with him about not allowing this behaviour. This is REALLY common with young dogs and children often reinforce it by running, screaming, hand waving, etc. The dog can interpret all of this as play and nothing encourages continued behaviour like getting a big reaction.
**I
should let him get as hyper as he wants to use the aggression energy
that he uses to attack my daughter & if he passes out, oh well, he
will recover: First of all, I'm not convinced this is aggression as much as bad puppy behaviour--but again, I'm not seeing it in person. And I think the letting him get hyper till he passes out is moronic advice. At least until you figure out WHY he is passing out. You definitely need to figure out what is causing the passing out. This isn't normal and it isn't safe. I forget where you are located, but I'd seriously consider a referral to a specialist. This could be heart, trachea, palate, etc and he may still be too young for surgery, but I'd get it looked at.

So its great that he can sit, twirl, and stay
but....he will not stop barking constantly when my daughter is in the
same room or car and he will continue to attack her unless I hold him n a
leash, while he barks like a maniac!!!

Barking is a tough behaviour to stop as it is self reinforcing. And many dogs will bark on leash. And extinguishing barking takes a while and requires consistency and patience. My guess would be--and this is only a guess--is that barking is working for him somehow and he may be one of the pugs that just IS a barker. Not insurmountable, but is definitely work.

I can't emphasize enough the importance of appropriate socialization with dogs--begun as soon as humanly possible. Good socialization avoids a host of problems.

I do think that an obedience class that used positive reinforcement is very important, but I also think that you are between a rock and a hard place until you get the passing out figured out.

ocnside wrote:
I am at wits end; truly the family is stressed with his behavior...please help

And let me just add this one last thing. BREATHE! Most dog training issues aren't impossible to deal with. And while it does take time and energy, consistency and patience, it often can be done. Your frustration will translate down to the little man and hamper your training efforts. I use very short training sessions with my foster dogs--often less than 5 minutes and for some often less than a minute where I use every opportunity to reward behaviour I want when it happens spontaneously.

I know the whole "relax" mantra is much easier sad than done, but strive to end on a positive note and if you're just not in the heads space to approach training calmly, then skip it at that time and come back to it when you are re-charged. I am incredibly hard headed and have to constantly remind myself that I need to sometimes step away from a training issue until I can clear my own head of my own ambitions, desires and frustrations......

And as I always say.......puppies are the devil......

Don't give up quite yet--as maddening as it is. And if it does become an untenable situation, you know that there are options out there for you.

Have they checked his heart? Done chest x rays to look for any enlargement?
@thminis
No, I have taken him for regular checkups but heart Xrays were never mentioned, I will make an appointment and ask for the Xrays to rule out something else. I just know that there is something that I am not catching!



There is something wrong with him physically if after the nares surgery he is still passing out. I would have the heart checked and I would get a second opinion on all of it. I would not risk his health for sake of training.
TNPUGMOMOF3
I agree, there is something else wrong, I will not train too hard, even if this is his third go-round with training, he should not be having these spells

It also sounds like he is being a spolied PIA cause he has been allowed to be, IMHO. In fact, he's been encouraged to be and decided he likes it! Can't blame him, I would enjoy getting away with murder and being spoiled while I do it! Very Happy I am an only child after all....

I am guilty of spoiling him but it got out of hand and now he is, dare I say, a monster, but I love this little monster and when he is with me alone, he listens 98% of the time but you are all right, my job is now going to be extremely hard to amend his badness.

Has he been like this with your daughter from the first meeting? Is it a learned behavior and them encouraged by your daughter, at least initially?

It was not like this at all, he and my daughter loved each other and cuddled all of the time and then he started nipping which turned into biting, now it is an attack every time he sees her, it sucks bc she lves him so much and always says Mommy, I love him so much why does he hate me, I always say, its just a stage baby, he does not hate you, it breaks my heart.

Send him to me, my pack with straighten him out! I wish :)


Blanche, I baby Julian to protect him, he does not know he is little and he certainly does not know he has breathing issues until it happens, then he is instantly a helpless infant.

I carry him for a couple of reasons: He is little and if I walk him too much he gets over heated and I get scared he will pass out...and the other reason is that it is just simpler. I still carry my 10 year old, she is only 54lbs so its just easier to pick her little body up.I see, yes, my fault.

The fan is to keep him cooler and calmer. The vet told me to do it bc of his passing out spells, she does it with her terrier mix and he had nares surgery too and still sounds like a truck.

The biting of my daughter. We are trying the redirection now but I am picturing her running grom him screaming NNNOOO Julian and hopping onto a stool or the counter top and then Julian stands on his hinds legs and barks insanely at her while she screams at him and asks him why is he so crazy and why did we get a crazy dog??? It's a bad scene but funny to watch if you are an outsider, so I am told.

He is badly behaved bc I was always afraid to upset him or get him riled-up so we just let it go, so to speak or just talk to him and say that is not appropriate Julian....well, unfortunately, he didn't understand me.

I am thankful for your input and the links...

As for the barking, I think I will try to get one problem figured out first, breathing, biting, and barking!

I will not give up on my boy, he is the love of my life...I love my wrinkly-faced little guy!!! So, I have work to do but I still think I am missing something with his health, I also feel that I took away alot of his puppyhood by keeping him calm so much....I know he needs more exercise and become stronger....so I am calling the vet and keeping up with the training (and issues of biting & barking)...whew, girl dogs and labs are cake compared to pugs; instead of learning with 5X, I am needing 50X plus his breathing mess!

I knew I'd find so many resources here.....thank you all ans I always look forward to everyone's expertise! MELISSA

ocnside wrote:As for the barking, I think I will try to get one problem figured out first, breathing, biting, and barking!

That's probably a good plan. If his soft palate was fine when he had his nares done, then it seems like there's got to be something else going on. He should not be passing out randomly. And although all pugs are somewhat heat sensitive, and their heat tolerance does vary, it's just not that hot out yet, at least for an extended period of time yet. I know that you've had way more than your share of medical issues with him, even for a pug. Poor little guy, and poor you!

I concur with the idea of more and more consistent training, especially involving your daughter. Just remember that she will need plenty of guidance on how to interact with him. Adult humans aren't necessarily naturally skilled at handling a dog appropriately, so it's not fair to expect a 10 year old who's already freaked out a bit by said dog to naturally do so, either. I'd set up little scenarios in which she and Julian can both be successful. If he already has a good sit, then teach her how to give the command well (intonation, hand signals, etc) and let her treat him for it. But make sure she knows how to give the treat properly-- not making/letting him jump for it, etc.

Also, have you tried any of the treat-dispensing puzzle games, like the Buster Cube? Those are supposed to help keep their minds busy and exhaust some of the energy that way, which may be the only way that he can work off his energy until you get his medical issues worked out.

This would be my plan of action. I agree with everyone else, he is being rewarded for this bad behavior and now the goal is to make it unrewarding.

I would choose a weekend to do this so you can devote the time and consistency that you'll need to make this work and you have to ask yourself how badly do you want it to stop, do you want it to stop badly enough that you are willing to do things very differently because if you're not, the behavior will continue. I have found that training the dogs is the easy part, the humans are the challenge.

A big part of the problem is probably your daughter yelling and screaming and being a normal 10 year old kid. To dogs, yelling, flailing children look fun to chase and bark at, so your daughter needs to change the way she interacts with him, if she can be calm and quiet, that will help diffuse the situation.

I'm assuming he has a crate. He will be spending a lot of time there this weekend that you choose to work on this behavior. I would choose a room that you work in. And this needs to be a dog proof room that you can shut the door on and leave him in there unsupervised for a few minutes.

Bring him from his crate to the room you choose to practice in. Have all of your family in the room except your daughter. Get settled in and be calm and then have your daughter enter the room. As soon as the barking starts, you will all wordlessly walk out of the room and close the door behind you so the dog can't follow. Don't look at the dog, don't talk to the dog. You (the whole family) will remain on the other side of the door until the dog stops barking.

When the dog stops, the family minus the daughter can calmly enter the room again, don't greet the dog, just act normal and go about your business. Wait a few minutes and ask your daughter to come in again. As soon as the dog barks, you all again wordless exit the room and close the door behind you until he stops barking and then calmly enter again.

Keep repeating this until the dog learns that barking at your daughter means he gets left all alone, nothing says, buddy you've screwed up like having your whole family walk out on you. Practice as much as you can over the weekend.

Your goal for this weekend is for the dog to only interact with your daughter if you can all leave the room when he barks. If you can't do this, then put the dog in his crate. It won't hurt him and then that way you can be consistent.

If you are consistent and start working on this Saturday morning, you should start seeing results by Sunday evening.

A bad behavior goes away much faster if there's a good behavior to replace it with. I would really work on teaching him that sitting politely while being petted is the bomb and means treats and pets. I would definitely retry some obedience classes too.

And get to the bottom of the passing out thing.

Good luck and ask any questions you like!

Such great insights and ideas being offered. If you believe all behaviour is purposeful (in both animals and people) and that no behaviour is repeated unless there is a payoff (either negative or positive) you have a good place to start. It would appear your furkid and daughter are both reacting to each other IMHO. The "reward" the dog receives by barking and biting is the reinforcement of the behaviour by her screaming and yelling and running away.

In our dog obedience classes when a problem behaviour is identified we ignore the unwanted actions and reward and highlight the desired ones. The theory is the dog will soon realize that certain behaviours will result in either food, or praise or physical play. Undesired or unwanted behaviours have no payoff whatsoever. The leaving of the room is a great example of ignoring the unwanted behaviour......a similar tactic is used for severe behaviour kids whose classmates are trained to leave the room or area when an incident occurs. Using the crate when unable to watch or monitor him is also a great way to manage unwanted behaviour.

Most dog obedience classes are offered indoors in climate controlled comfort. It may be helpful to go see what goes on in a beginner class to see what types of things you could be working on while you are getting Julian's health issues in hand. Most beginner classes are 30 minutes long and generally nobody moves faster than a walk so lots of time to monitor his issues. Basic words like sit, down, wait, stay, stand and heel or forward are good starting commands. Dogs are mentally tired when they leave dog classes. The stimulation of other dogs and humans as well as being asked to do things in a new place and in random order makes them ready for a good rest when they get home. I am not entirely sure your young daughter is the best first obedience trainer for Julian unless some of the control issues are addressed before starting into training. I have seen few kids under 13 undertake obedience training a dog from scratch and those kids are usually from a family already involved in the sport....a huge commitment for a young person.....again IMHO but have been in the sport for many years. Best of luck in your quest for answers. Too bad you are not closer as I would love to have another Pug to train with.

[quote="GingerSnap"]

ocnside wrote:I concur with the idea of more and more consistent training, especially involving your daughter.

Also, have you tried any of the treat-dispensing puzzle games, like the Buster Cube? .

pugasaurus wrote:This would be my plan of action. I agree with everyone else, he is being rewarded for this bad behavior and now the goal is to make it unrewarding.

I would choose a weekend to do this so you can devote the time and consistency that you'll need to make this work
!

Well this is the weekend, wish I lived closer as well, Julian needs to 'get it together'....we will get this!

Karen has nicely laid out a plan for you--and she knows her stuff.

One of my bottom line training mantras is bad behaviour doesn't get my attention (within limits). My dogs know that acting like an A-hole will get you ignored and/or separated from the action and the fun.

Just remember--he is still quite young so repetition will be required and he'll forget or relapse or test your limits. He's not doing it to be a jerk, he's just being a young dog figuring out what the rules and limitations are.

And some dogs will up the ante before they improve just to see if you are really committed. His world is about to change pretty radically and he may resist this. But stick with it and you will see progress.

I can not add anything as far as training advice goes. However, there is something physically wrong if he has passing out episodes. Does Julian ever have episodes where he does the reverse sneezes, choke on water, pant a lot? I would take him to a specialist. While our vet feels the soft pallete issue is ok, it sure sounds as if that could be an issue. There could also be something called inverted saccules causing problems. Of course, the heart could be an issue as well, but as the specialist told me once, many regular vet's confuse an enlarged heart in pugs because their chest cavity is so smushed compared to other breeds. That was not the technical word she used, but I got the message

leslyeb wrote: Of course, the heart could be an issue as well, but as the specialist told me once, many regular vet's confuse an enlarged heart in pugs because their chest cavity is so smushed compared to other breeds. That was not the technical word she used, but I got the message

Good point, Leslye. I've also been told the same thing by the cardiac specialist here--that many pugs get misdiagnosed with an enlarged heart due to their conformation.