Advice on rescue boys please

Ok, I need some advice please, from those of you who have been in a similar boat with rescue pugs.

Two working stud dogs, Bert and Ernie came in together from a puppymill, apparently they had always lived in the same run and the woman (may she turn her ankle) said they were to stay together. Both boys have notable health issues, from ears to wrinkles to feet and back again and are now two days in on meds and treatment.

I have two concerns about their care here -
Today they have started humping eachother like MAD. Bert is the older, more dominant male and he is going at it non stop with Ernie who doesn't seem too concerned about it. Presumably this is normal for them? Who knows. Occasionally he will growl but it's to little effect. So, split them up, right? But if this is the norm for them and being on their own is a totally new and stressful thing.... you see the problem? So I'm wondering if anyone has any wise words on the matter.

These dear boys were not supposed end up here at all. A lady from elsewhere was supposed to meet me at the puppymill and take the boys to her outdoor accomodations so they would have an upgrade on what they were used to in a setting where it didn't matter where they peed. But it all went pearshaped and she didn't make it so I ended up there on my tod and saw little alternative but to grab both girls and boys and run.

The lads will be majorly difficult to rehome because of their previous employment and lifestyle. They are going to pee all over the house and hump everything in sight. Silly to expect otherwise. But they can't stay here long term, Wish is due in season at the end of the year and I have two entire males of my own. To add two professional cassanovas is madness.

So I'm thinking that at some stage they are going to end up in kennels. Hopefully not before they are in good health. I'm torn between overnighting them indoors and breaking them in to spending time in the kitchen in an effort to start getting them home ready, and keeping them outside at night (barking permitting) so they don't have a shock when they return to kennel living.

The two puppymill girls are leaving the pugnest for their new family tomorrow, so I will have more space and time. Any words of wisdom or advice gratefully received! Thank you

Almandine, I have a couple of suggestions. We recently had a pair in that while weren't puppy mill pugs, exhibited much of the same behavior. They humped and marked quite a bit, we also were told they were a bonded pair and they did appear to be pretty bonded. However, we knew it would be really hard to (1) adopt them out together with those issues and (2) start working on those issues if they were together. So their foster home decided to try one in another foster to see how they'd do. They both did wonderfully, the one that was getting humped all the time blossomed and the other one didn't hump his new foster brothers and sisters. Their marking improved dramatically, and quite honestly, a home is much more likely to be able to deal with 1 marker/humper than 2, as you said. I actually am probably the most hard nosed about separating pairs in the rescue, mainly because only a small fraction of the pairs we see actually are bonded and can't be separated. I don't know if you have someone who could maybe "trial foster" them for a few days to see how they'd do apart.

The other thing is, I think I'd be inclined to get them used to indoor life. I've had a few markers and I've had to use a combination of confining them to a room (in an x pen) when I wasn't home, and then using belly bands when I could supervise and watch them to get them outside to their business.

Split those boys up. I hear alot of 'stories' about how dogs that we get are bonded pairs and it's almost never the case. And especially with two stud dogs and a recommendation from the twit owner--I'd split those two up so fast their heads would spin.

I have seen the humping deal a few times and the humpee didn't seem to mind (Hilary's Denver was the humpee of a supposedly bonded pair)being humped, but as soon as I busted the pair up, the humper stopped humping and the humpee had a chance to blossom.

Other than that, I agree with Saira's recommendations.

Crates and belly bands are my friends. I had a boy that marked 20 times in an hour, but after neuter and correction he got to the point I could trust him for a couple hours.

Would your rescue organization adopt them out to someone who would keep them outdoors or in a kennel situation? Just curious.

I have nothing to add to the wonderful and knowledgeable advice given already, Almandine, mostly because I have so little rescue experience, but also because we certainly have the most experienced rescue people ANYWHERE, right here! Hope things settle down soon and you get these poor boys sorted.

northernwitch wrote:Split those boys up. I hear alot of 'stories' about how dogs that we get are bonded pairs and it's almost never the case. And especially with two stud dogs and a recommendation from the twit owner--I'd split those two up so fast their heads would spin.

I have seen the humping deal a few times and the humpee didn't seem to mind (Hilary's Denver was the humpee of a supposedly bonded pair)being humped, but as soon as I busted the pair up, the humper stopped humping and the humpee had a chance to blossom.

Other than that, I agree with Saira's recommendations.

I agree too.

TNPUGMOMOF3 wrote:Crates and belly bands are my friends. I had a boy that marked 20 times in an hour, but after neuter and correction he got to the point I could trust him for a couple hours.

Second that.

Also agree with the trial separation, if possible. We've had a couple of pairs (not pugs) which were what we call "bully/victim bonded" and they have all done so much better apart. One pair were siblings and the other not. Both pairs same sex. Normally we would try to rehome bonded pairs together.

Before Bruno's breeder passed away, she had talked to us about adopting one of her stud dogs. She was a show breeder and always found homes for her studs when they were ready to retire. The stud we discussed with her was about 4 years old. We weren't in a position to take him at the time, but I remember her telling us that other homes had good success re-training her stud dogs (housed primarily in outdoor kennels) into indoor pets. She advised her families to start all over again with crate training as if they were puppies and just having a lot of patience, but she did mention that crate training, correctly and consistently applied, had been quite successful in re-training a stud dog to an indoor pet.

Other than that conversation, I'm afraid I have no other experience to offer. Blanche and Saira have given great advice, having been through this with their rescues.

I, personally, think it's a great mistake to assume that an outdoor dog won't adjust to living indoors. Yes, it takes time, but I've had many dogs in foster care who had lived primarily outdoors and were intact. All of them adjusted to being indoor dogs. Yes, it took time and effort, but they all made the transition.

Look at Jake and Betsy, for example.

Thank you so much for the advice. Indeed Rona, it's a goldmine of foster wisdom here!

Initially I thought an outdoor living situation would be best, then I met them! These are not vacant headed puppy machines, but lively, full of fun, smart dogs who are looking to bond with people and thriving on the relatively little attention they now have. It would be such a waste to have them continue in relative isolation.

Watching their behaviour today, it seems obvious that seperating them is the only way to go. It's compulsive, not bored behaviour and although Ernie doesn't seem overly stressed by the excessive humping, he has probably learned that making a fuss doesn't help him anyway.

Both boys immediately rush to hump any other dogs - dogs, bitches, the puppy, it really doesn't matter, so I suspect they will have to be placed without other pugs. But that's easier than finding someone to take a pair of humping piddlepots together!

I'm going to hit the phones again this afternoon.

It might be different for you guys in the UK, but we often don't have the option of requesting an "only dog" home for something as benign as humping. It is a behaviour that you can retrain. Neutering these two will help, but much of what you're seeing is likely habit--nothing to do so they revert to humping. I break up humping whenever I see it, even if it means I have to leash someone to my waist.
I would bet these chaps have been so neglected and so bored and so under stimulated, that humping was the only recreation to be had. And many dogs will hump during times of stress.
I realize that you probably weren't expecting to suddenly have to foster these two mooks, but I'd be focussing on breaking the pattern and re-directing their energies elsewhere. It's pretty labour intensive, but you CAN break that humping habit.

Thanks Blanche. I totally agree, these poor buggers had nothing else to do ALL DAY Grrr!

I have been observing them together and the humping response is if there's nothing else to do, if Ernie looks at a bone, gets in the ways, or if they are both playing (even with different people) and thing just get very happy and exciting. Ernie doesn't do it much and I think he would be a doddle to retrain.

Bert is older, bossier and much more persistant. His efforts are the whole nine yards and in two seconds flat he has his whole bathing suit area busting out all over the place, even if you pull him off, he is too far through the process to give it up. It must be dreadfully frustrating for him. Even food won't distract him once his sails are up.

Sadly, our list of lovely folks waiting for a welfare pug contains very, very few homes who are able/prepared to deal with anything other than a well adjusted, healthy pug. I have delivered three of those this week so thank heavens the list is there. The comittment required to break Bert's nasty habits is going to rule out probably 99% of applicants. I reckon we'd lose 70% at pees in the house and 29% more at "will hump your cat"

At Bert's age, I'd hate to see him get into trouble and bounce back. Maybe he would be ok with a breed that was completely unlike a pug.

They are both in the kitchen now, in seperate crates, making no noise, relaxed and probably asleep. It's looking good for the transition to indoor living. I don't want to jinx it, but they have been in for 2 hours and (sshhhh!) no pees!

Poor chaps.

I think it is a pity that people make such a huge issue about dealing with a dog that pees in the house. Clearly you don't *want* this to happen, but it is a training issue which can be addressed and as long as you keep the dog confined to easy clean areas when you can't watch him, what's a bit of pee between friends? If you take on a puppy you expect pee accidents (and poo accidents which I find much more horrid); if you take on a new older pug why would you not be prepared to deal with accidents too? Maybe I'm weird but it doesn't seem like the end of the world to me. Sadly I am sure Almandine is right in her assertion that most people won't sign up for that.

Snifter&Toddy wrote:Poor chaps.

I think it is a pity that people make such a huge issue about dealing with a dog that pees in the house. Clearly you don't *want* this to happen, but it is a training issue which can be addressed and as long as you keep the dog confined to easy clean areas when you can't watch him, what's a bit of pee between friends? If you take on a puppy you expect pee accidents (and poo accidents which I find much more horrid); if you take on a new older pug why would you not be prepared to deal with accidents too? Maybe I'm weird but it doesn't seem like the end of the world to me. Sadly I am sure Almandine is right in her assertion that most people won't sign up for that.

Believe me, I understand the problem. Peeing in the house is one of the top reasons people surrender pugs to us and it always baffles me. Maybe I'm too used to dealing with it so it doesn't strike me as that big a deal--as Marci said, crates, belly bands are your friends--or gating into an easily cleaned area since I don't crate alot.

Poor old sods. I hope they can find forever.

No advice, Almandine, just a huge BLESS YOU A MILLION TIMES for taking these two boys.

northernwitch wrote:

Snifter&Toddy wrote:Poor chaps.

I think it is a pity that people make such a huge issue about dealing with a dog that pees in the house. Clearly you don't *want* this to happen, but it is a training issue which can be addressed and as long as you keep the dog confined to easy clean areas when you can't watch him, what's a bit of pee between friends? If you take on a puppy you expect pee accidents (and poo accidents which I find much more horrid); if you take on a new older pug why would you not be prepared to deal with accidents too? Maybe I'm weird but it doesn't seem like the end of the world to me. Sadly I am sure Almandine is right in her assertion that most people won't sign up for that.

Believe me, I understand the problem. Peeing in the house is one of the top reasons people surrender pugs to us and it always baffles me. Maybe I'm too used to dealing with it so it doesn't strike me as that big a deal--as Marci said, crates, belly bands are your friends--or gating into an easily cleaned area since I don't crate alot.

Poor old sods. I hope they can find forever.

I agree too, and it's the reason we get so many people who want to adopt females but won't adopt males (who I have a weakness for!). I hope they can find a great home too. One thing I have found that sometimes people who may say they don't want a male, or don't want to deal with peeing, might fall in love with him when they see him and be willing to work with them-it's a lot easier to say no when you read "pees and humps" than when you see such a cute face in person. Just my observation!