Seriously, what are the odds?

What on earth are the odds that Grace would begin having the leg spasms in her back legs like Kayla has? You wouldn't think they'd be great odds, but apparently they are.

Grace has been walking funny all summer - nothing real pronounced - no specific limp or anything, no dragging or scuffing, her walk was just a little off. Went to the vet and her knees feel good (I was concerned that her LP in her right knee was acting up) but he could feel grinding in the left one and he read his notes from her LP surgery two years ago and noted a lot of arthritis in that knee then, which he said would mean it had worsened since, so we chalked her "off" walking to arthritis.

Then the last couple months I've been wondering if she's losing bowel control or she's just being a shit (pun intended!) about pooping in the house - you never do know with her. I do think it's that she's slowly losing bowel control - she knows she's going or has to go but has no warning whatsoever - or she'll poop while she's standing at her bowl eating.

The icing on the cake? Two weeks ago, I would have sworn she had an episode of leg spasms in her back legs like Kayla has. It was when she was walking into her crate to go to bed and I convinced myself that I'd imagined it. That was until tonight, she had a full blown leg spasm episode before dinner and one again after dinner.

So, again, what on earth are the odds that Grace would start showing symptoms similar to Makayla?

That would make me think something environmental is going on at your place. I don't know what, though...

Hugs to both.

I'd have to wonder about an environmental factor, too. Sending my hugs to all, as well, and I'll keep Gracie as well as Kayla in my prayers.

Are you freaking out? You sound pretty calm about it. Could there ben an environmental factor? Maybe a mineral in the water? Could you put the pugs on purified water? Or distilled water? I am just reaching for straws here.

Pugs hugs!

Frankly, after this many years fostering and adopting pugs, I put nothing past them. I've decided they can and will get anything. And the weirder and more unlikely, the better.

I'm sorry--I'm making light of it, but it's not funny. I hope you can get some answers.

I think it could be environmental - or just a coincidence.

Any chance they are related? Share similar genetics?

How rare are Kayla's leg issues?

MJ and Linda, an environmental factor crossed my mind as well. Who knows?!

Jana, I'm not really freaking out - mostly because it's something that's really out of my control and if it is DM like Kayla has, there's nothing I can do for it but care for her like I care for Kayla. Also, who knows - it could just be a total coincidence, maybe she pinched a nerve, tweaked her back and that's causing the spasms - so I don't want to get myself all worked up.

northernwitch wrote:Frankly, after this many years fostering and adopting pugs, I put nothing past them. I've decided they can and will get anything. And the weirder and more unlikely, the better.

I'm sorry--I'm making light of it, but it's not funny. I hope you can get some answers.

Blanche - it's not funny -ha ha funny; it's funny - like WTF funny, you know? I agree - these pugs seem to get the weirdest, strangest things!!

Renee wrote:I think it could be environmental - or just a coincidence.

Any chance they are related? Share similar genetics?

How rare are Kayla's leg issues?

Renee, I've strongly considered it's a total coincidence, too. Maybe the strange walking really is arthritis. Maybe the loss of bowel control - well, cripes so many pugs lose bowel control that that really doesn't shock me. And maybe the leg spasms are something pinched or tweaked, not a big deal.

I doubt the girls are related - Kayla's from WI (we're guessing small scale puppymill but do not know for sure) and Grace is from a nasty mill down in OK. Although we all admit nothing is impossible, I don't think there's any chance they're related.

Degenerative myelopathy (DM) - which is what we believe Makayla has - is not necessarily an extremely rare condition. Although it's primarily considered a german shepard and corgi illness, there just isn't research to say whether it's common or rare in pugs. Unfortunately, DM cannot be definitively diagnosed until a necropsy is conducted after death. It's diagnosed by excluding other possible causes of the symptoms. We've done x-rays, CT scan and MRI to rule out IVDD (bulging or ruptured disk(s)), FCE (embolism or stroke), spinal growths. So we can only presume it's DM that Kayla suffers from based on her symptoms and the testing we've done, but we cannot know for sure.

I'm not panicked because whether it's DM or something else altogether going on with Grace, I've learned a TON in the past year caring for Makayla and I feel prepared to care for Grace, whatever it is or is not. Now, this time last year when we were going through this with Makayla, I was a complete and total mess!!!

Thanks for the hugs and good thoughts. There never is a dull moment with these boogers, is there?!

Oh dear!! I hate to hear this :( But as you've said you know so much about it now at least you are prepared. I'm gonna hope and pray it's just a temporary thing.

Hmmmm.
Same symptoms does not necessarily mean same condition. Get the diagnosis settled first then we will worry about causes.
You are a first rate pug nurse now, there is half the battle won already! Hugs to you!!!

hugs to you!!! I hope it's something else - either way, give Gracie an extra treat or two from me (she doesn't like hugs, right??)

northernwitch wrote:Frankly, after this many years fostering and adopting pugs, I put nothing past them. I've decided they can and will get anything. And the weirder and more unlikely, the better.

Ain't that the truth?!? DM is primarily considered a "big dog" disease, just like osteosarcoma. Don't tell Kayla, Buster, or Gracie that they're not big dogs. The beginning of your post sounds so much like a post I made about Pugsy on the Pug Stories forum several years ago. I could tell that her gait was "off" but I couldn't put my finger on it & everything checked out ok. Fast forward a few years and she was in a cart. We don't know for sure if it was DM or IVDD but we've seen enough pugs in rescue with the same symptoms to know that it was most likely one or the other. It's really way too common to be a coincedence, in my opinion. I've tried emailing U of I and Christine Dresser, the PDCA health committee chairperson, but no studies are planned right now unfortunately. Yoda's got back end issues & sometimes I see Bella walking a little funny & I can't help but wonder if she'll be in the same boat someday too. There was a pug adopted from NIPRA who was at Pug Jam last weekend that can't use her back legs at all now. She was the happiest little thing & seemed to know that I have a soft spot for the special ones like her because every time I turned around, she was by my feet.

Ok, I'm rambling now...I know this doesn't help much...I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you may be facing this with another one of your babies Rachel & I understand where you're coming from. I'll be thinking good thoughts for you & Gracie.

I'm sorry to hear that Rachel. Chyna sometimes has leg spasms, but her mri revealed degenerative disc disease so I figure when she inflames the disc by being too active, she starts having spasms. I hate it because she just starts freaking out and tries to walk around.

TxAllieGrl wrote:hugs to you!!! I hope it's something else - either way, give Gracie an extra treat or two from me (she doesn't like hugs, right??)

Too funny, Allie - she'd much rather a treat than a hug. In fact, at night when I tell her to kennel, if she's putzing around and won't kennel, I tell her if she isn't in her kennel by the time I get in the bedroom, I'm going to pick her up and kiss and love her. Needless to say, that usually gets her moving!!!

PugLady3 wrote:

northernwitch wrote:Frankly, after this many years fostering and adopting pugs, I put nothing past them. I've decided they can and will get anything. And the weirder and more unlikely, the better.

Ain't that the truth?!? DM is primarily considered a "big dog" disease, just like osteosarcoma. Don't tell Kayla, Buster, or Gracie that they're not big dogs. The beginning of your post sounds so much like a post I made about Pugsy on the Pug Stories forum several years ago. I could tell that her gait was "off" but I couldn't put my finger on it & everything checked out ok. Fast forward a few years and she was in a cart. We don't know for sure if it was DM or IVDD but we've seen enough pugs in rescue with the same symptoms to know that it was most likely one or the other. It's really way too common to be a coincedence, in my opinion. I've tried emailing U of I and Christine Dresser, the PDCA health committee chairperson, but no studies are planned right now unfortunately. Yoda's got back end issues & sometimes I see Bella walking a little funny & I can't help but wonder if she'll be in the same boat someday too. There was a pug adopted from NIPRA who was at Pug Jam last weekend that can't use her back legs at all now. She was the happiest little thing & seemed to know that I have a soft spot for the special ones like her because every time I turned around, she was by my feet.

Ok, I'm rambling now...I know this doesn't help much...I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you may be facing this with another one of your babies Rachel & I understand where you're coming from. I'll be thinking good thoughts for you & Gracie.

I know I'm definitely not the only who's dealt with this - back end issues to be so common with so many pugs lately. I'd imagine it's either DM or IVDD. Regardless, we'll take each day as it comes and go from there - nothing more we can do. When I put her in her kennel last night, I asked her how we were going to do if she loses her mobility and has to always be held and carried - told her she'd better get over herself now and get used to being held!!

leslyeb wrote:I'm sorry to hear that Rachel. Chyna sometimes has leg spasms, but her mri revealed degenerative disc disease so I figure when she inflames the disc by being too active, she starts having spasms. I hate it because she just starts freaking out and tries to walk around.

Kayla and Grace are both the same way when it happens, Leslye. They get confused and try to keep walking, trying to figure out what's going on with their legs. Poor puggies - it must really confuse them to not understand why they're legs are spasming. Give Chyna kisses from us, Leslye.