Daisy is awful to Hercules

She is 7.5 months old now, spayed. She is absolutely evil to Hercules. If I say anything to him, she bites his face and goes into full growl attach mode. He typically ignores her, but lately he is fighting back. He is 11 and she jumps on top of him and makes him fall!!

I remove her from him and place her in the crate to allow her to chill.

I know the triggers but they are impossible to ignore. I would have to ignore Hercules entirely and that I wont do, he is my boy as much as she is my brat.  Is this typical female behavior? I got Dolly when she was 6 and she was fiesty but not like this!!!

If I ask Hercules and Daisy to leave the kitchen when I am tending to my Mom or her medications, she attacks him. If I give them both a treat, she takes her and then attacks him. If I address him at all she attacks him. Yet, she allows  him to sleep on top of me and cuddle me. I dont get this monster.

Any ideas on how to correct her and stop this behavior? She did attend puppy classes, so knows some basic commands, but plan on additional classes after the new year.  Yet around other dgos, a total wimp, afraid of the stupidist things. And yet she is the tough guy with Hercules.

Advice?

Awww... poor Herc. :( Hopefully Karen can stop by with some tips. Are you on FB? You might post there too, at least to get her attention.

I am but didn't want to post there.  didnt want family input.

PugMomto3 wrote:I am but didn't want to post there.  didnt want family input.

Totally understand! Are you friends with Karen? Maybe send her a message?

Well... I was shocked to learn that "the boys let the girls get away with anything"... but that being said, you will have to watch the situation, and be sure your girl learns a "leave it" command... and then you need to WATCH and time that at the moment she might be having the littlest thought of contacting/interacting with MR. H.

You want her to want YOU more than she wants him.. that's a tall order, as a dog will almost always choose another dog over a human, but it's a GREAT victory - and can save many a dog's life to have that in their brains!!

Herc might "Whale" on her after "Too much" but you don't want him to have to hold it in/put up with it for that long...

consistent, patient, peremptory, and firm... I look forward to hearing more ideas.

A few years ago, there was an "It's Me or the Dog" episode that was very similar to this problem (in fact, I think the dogs involved were pugs, both females, though). One would attack the other whenever the owner was near the targetted dog. If I recall, Victoria Stillwell adressed it by having both dogs on leashes (this requires 2 people to make it happen). The owner sat with the first (aggressive) dog on a sofa, and another person walked past the door of the room with pug2, not close enough to provoke a reaction. The owner then used some target phrase (probably something like 'still' or 'calm') and gave a high-stakes reward (something very delicious that the aggressive dog ONLY got when it was not showing aggression). Then, over time (several days to a week or longer), the helper person would bring pug2 closer to the target pair. Each time the aggressive pug didn't growl, snarl or react, the special word was used and the dog was rewarded. As these were pugs, it didn't take long for the aggressive dog to decide the treats were better than the aggression.

After a while (can't recall the elapsed time, as it was all on one episode of the show), the aggressive pug would wag its tail when pug2 got nearby, since she knew she'd get the treat. By the end of the episode, both pugs were sitting on the sofa, on the owner without any aggression.

There was no coercion or punishment, it was all reward-based, but the main thing was that the special treat was something the dog loved and that the dog was never given except when the desired behavior was being shown. During some of the initial interactions, pug1 would growl. At that point, there was a firm/definite "no!" and the treat was not given. 

I don't know if old episodes are available on Victoria Stillwell's website, but you could try searching.  I like her approach very much, since it's based on using the dog's own behavior to motivate it and it doesn't use punishment or sharp corrections.

Good luck!

Indeed how great it is to have an extra pair of hands when training!

Sophie would do this (and still tries once in awhile to Hooligan).  I won't tolerate it, because Hooligan is 12 years old and has back issues. When we got her, he was 6 but he won't ever fight back, so it's up to me to protect him.  We tried to nip this in the bud when the behavior first started showing when she was young-I don't know if she goes after him because he's old, because she will not ever go after Indy, even if Indy snaps at her.

We just had to watch for her cues when she would start getting jealous/pissy-her clues are pretty obvious.  We call her the fun police because if she thinks Hooli is having to much fun with us or toys, she will try and start a fight-she'll stare/go still/etc.  Every time we saw that happen and we saw her focus on him, when she even so much THOUGHT about doing it, we'd get up and put her in a time out and she'd lose lap privilages since we had to get up.  She lost all attention from us while she was in time out.  For quite a while, she didn't sleep with us on the bed either.  She just got that privilage a few years ago (she's 6 now).  She's 99% great now, but we still watch her closely if we are playing with Hooli.  I'll put up with a lot of bad behavior, but her being a jerk to Hooligan isn't one of them.  

Hey, it's Karen here, I just saw on FB about this. I LOVE the VS idea and if you don't have an extra pair of hands, you can put Daisy behind a baby gate where she can see Hercules, but can't get at him. Start with Hercules far away and every time Daisy doesn't react, throw a treat to her, gradually moving Hercules closer and closer. The goal is for Daisy to make the connection that being calm around Hercules means she gets lots of goodies.

I would name these little training sessions "Daisy, it's time to love Hercules" or something like that and say it in a excited voice every time you have one of these training sessions. I would have as many short little training sessions as you can during the day. Daisy will grow to look forward to them. The cue also marks the difference between training sessions and "real life" or what she normally does when she's around Hercules. Once you can get Daisy up close to Hercules in a controlled manner, either with the leashes or baby gate and she's not reacting, then it's time to up the ante, pet Hercules briefly and reward Daisy for being calm. Gradually build up time petting Hercules. Once you can pet Hercules for your normal petting time, I would increase the criteria again by letting Hercules get in your lap and Daisy staying on the floor. Remember, she's getting lots of treats for being calm. And you're also marking the sessions with your "Daisy, it's time to love Hercules" cue.

By now, she should make the association that being nice to Hercules is much more rewarding than being a witch, she should start to look forward to hanging out with him and eventually it's always "Daisy, it's time to love Hercules".

I would also take her back for more training classes, and talk to a trainer about her behavior, there's nothing like having someone who can actually see the dog and coach you on what to do. And I'd work on tons of impulse control exercises.

PugMomto3 wrote:I am but didn't want to post there.  didnt want family input.

I posted on FB that you needed some advise over here on the forum, no names were mentioned.  Hopefully
that won't cause you any unwanted input. 

Thanks everyone. I saw that Kathy, no one on FB knows me as PugMomto3. Not to worry, much appreciated!

The funny thing about Daisy is, she cuddles with him all day long. they nap together like best buds. SHe just gets evil unprovoked for the most part.

For instance if someone comes down the stairs, Hercules may bark. I will say its ok Herc, its Cameron. Typically he will stop understanding its my son . But Daisy hearing that I have addressed Hercules, will get in his face growling , her hair stands up  and it leads to an aggressive attack where she gets on top of him and knocks him down. I usually lift her off and put her in the crate. Yesterday I illed a soda can with pennies and shook it, that worked. But I bet not for long.

I am going to try these suggestions, thanks so much!!

I tried the soda can with pennies once, with my Kerry Blue terrier. She bit the can...luckily she didn't get the pennies. So much for that idea with her!   

How is she when other people are around in general? Is that a trigger? (either the bell, Herc acting dominant around the idea of a newcomer, or just over-excitedness at the situation? If the attacks only happen in this instance, it might need a different scenario to work her out of it. Would still be rewards-based, but maybe with the visitor/bell as the trigger rather than the nearness of Hercules.

We've done similar to what Saira suggested.

These bratty girls can be serious fun police. They are just fine and dandy until another pug gets excited, then they bust out with the attack.

It's not just the girls who have that problem.
 I can't really advise you on how to fix the problem , only say you're not alone.

When (Demon Drago) was younger , he was the fur family police.
 EVERY single time I would address a different pug for a misbehavior , he was RIGHT there correcting things in his way . And , by his way I mean .... get in the original offenders face , smile like a Grinch ,roll his lip, get wild eyed, stick his paw up towards the face and woof woof woof woof , or if he was feeling in rare form he'd bite at the offender. That made things even more lively.
This almost always resulted in either a fight [Remi] because no one got in his face EVER without an issue or a chase [Milo] because he's always attempted to show Dra he is the supreme ruler of the house either by chasing him down or humping him. Rarely did Milo ever fight , but if he did , it was guaranteed to get ugly because he didn't come into the world hardwired to back down. I garnered myself 2 real "good" deep bites over the early years from that one but that's a whole 'nother story.   
 I had a terrible time trying to get him to stop it.Time out didn't work because it seemed to simply give him ample opportunity to think up some more crap to do.
 It took more paying closer attention and being vigilant about grabbing hold of him before scolding the other party.  That's not always possible though so we still had occasional problems.
 One day , I happened to be reading a magazine when he started it and I slapped the table with it to get his attention, whilst repeating the ol "STOP IT!!".
You'd think I knocked him to next week as big as his eyes got. The sheer sound and shock caused him to forget what he was doing to start with.
Of course , I would never ever ever hit him with it but the sound alone got his attention.
I started keeping one nearby and it didn't take long he figured out I had it. I could just look at it when he was getting geared up and he knew to knock it off. 
 He's 7 now and has mellowed quite a lot. Much less of a jerk than his youngster gangster behavioral days.  He still has rare outbursts but he wears out faster than he did back then   .  

Mickey came along later and didn't have to contend with that behavior much.
 They did have one nasty row early on in which Micks was hell bent on showing Dra he wasn't going to tolerate that crap. Micks lost a tooth in the brawl (pre dental so his teeth were bad anyways). It worked wonders , Dra has been very respectful of his space ever since.

And everyone has bought up a good point. Get familiar with all the signs that mean an attack is looming, the hard stare, the stiffened posture and so forth. It's much easier to redirect before a fight breaks out than in the middle of one.

I forgot to mention this earlier too. doing. A bad behavior will go away much faster if you have another one to replace it with. An easy one in this case would be sitting politely. So you see the dogs giving each other the eye. You interrupt and redirect Daisy into a sit, she gets tons of treats. Make sitting politely a preferred behavior, one that she gets amply rewarded for and she'll start to make the connection.

You'll know she's gotten it when she starts to puff up, changes her mind and looks up at you, with the "where's my treat" look.

pugasaurus wrote:And everyone has bought up a good point. Get familiar with all the signs that mean an attack is looming, the hard stare, the stiffened posture and so forth. It's much easier to redirect before a fight breaks out than in the middle of one.

I forgot to mention this earlier too. doing. A bad behavior will go away much faster if you have another one to replace it with. An easy one in this case would be sitting politely. So you see the dogs giving each other the eye. You interrupt and redirect Daisy into a sit, she gets tons of treats. Make sitting politely a preferred behavior, one that she gets amply rewarded for and she'll start to make the connection.

You'll know she's gotten it when she starts to puff up, changes her mind and looks up at you, with the "where's my treat" look.

This really helps!  I used this method especially when we are out.  She used to always want to go after other dogs, but she also gets worried about me and is easily redirected to focus on me--so I used it to my advantage, by redirecting her if she starts to pay too much attention to others and get her to sit and focus on a treat.  It really worked, she can go out in public now, and is very well behaved (really!).

It has been a lovely collaborative of ideas to witness...

It sounds like she is trying to correct him instead of realizing that it is your job, and not her's. She is in charge. Pretty typical of females, I have found. She needs to know that you are the only one who gets to correct behavior.

ayleash wrote:It has been a lovely collaborative of ideas to witness...

AMEN!! That is why I LOVE this place and FB can never replace it in my mind!!
Great job to everyone who offered advice! You are ALL the BEST!!

how's it going?

its a work in progress, but she is improving slowly. sometimes I am able to redirect her merely by calling her name in a gentle way, but before she gets too crazy.  once she gets crazy and the hair stands up on her back I need to remove her and crate her.
what a little monster girl. its getting easier to recognize her triggers, so easier to avoid most situations. thanks for asking.