Help! No vaccines??

I hit a bump...I think! I called the vet today (of the couple wanting to adopt Turbo) and found out that of the 3 dogs that they have....only 2 have been to the vet. One was last seen in 2008 for vaccinations and was due in 2009. Another was seen in early 2009 and was due in early 2010. The 3rd dog, they did not have on record. I called the couple's home and spoke to the wife. She confirmed this information, however she said that in the rural area that they live in, very few people vaccinate their pets!!! The new dog they have (the 3rd one) was just purchased in September from a breeder (a puppy – Chihuahua) and she told me that the breeder told her that she never vaccinates her dogs either! In addition, the dog that lives next door to them (the lab that visits often) has never been vaccinated. She said that when they lived in Toronto they always had them vaccinated but it isn’t popular in Nova Scotia. She did say that she does go to the vet in May to pick up Revolution for heartworm/ticks/etc. and both dogs have this every year (the 3rd dog that came in September did not). The vet confirmed that Revolution is purchased annually. The wife said that if the dogs are sick, they take them in. One of the dogs ate a wild bird and almost died from the bones. They took this dog to the vet immediately and was saved.

The wife said that if this is a deal breaker they will take their dogs to the vet and get it done tomorrow, if they can.

I need your opinion/thoughts on this! Am I analyzing this too much? I’m thinking that if they get the notice every year from the vet (I asked the wife if they get the notice and she confirmed yes) and then don’t follow through...is this a red flag? Why would people in Nova Scotia neglect something so important?

That would probably be a dealbreaker to me. Not just for the vaccines, but the fact that they don't go to the vet to be checked out on a regular basis, and puppies especially need vaccinations-parvo is sooo deadly. Based upon what you wrote, it sounds as if the puppy has never seen a vet..grr. I know some people don't vaccinate on the yearly schedule (I don't) , or don't get all the vaccines (I don't do bordatella) but they need to at least show something so it doesn't just sound like it's just an excuse not to go to the vet. Or show they did some research on vaccinations, something. Isn't rabies required there by law? If they don't get that (or get an exemption) than if Turbo bit someone, and they had no proof, he could risk being put down. Not worth it for me.

Good point Saira - rabies is a must no matter where you live. And even if it wasn't the law, they should be getting that done. There's so many wild animals that carry rabies too.

I don't like the "it's not popular" excuse. It should be what they want to do for the health of their dogs. Many people are going to every three years; which I think is fine, but this family isn't doing it (or not doing it) due to research, they are not doing it cuz it's not popular? Weird.

Once a puppy has had its first set of vaccinations (every three weeks usually for three times total), then I believe in the 'every-three-year' rule.

In my opnion, the two dogs who've been vaccinated would be OK, but to not vaccinate a puppy? Criminal. Parvo is wayyyyy too common and easily caught (from another dog or a human tracking it in) to ignore. Shame on them!

Saira wrote:..... Isn't rabies required there by law? If they don't get that (or get an exemption) than if Turbo bit someone, and they had no proof, he could risk being put down. Not worth it for me.

Good point, Saira. And if we're talking about the 'back woods' of Canada,. rabies is very prevalent in areas like that- Fox, skunks, feral cats, squirrels, etc. can easily have rabies running amongst them.

Maryjo wrote:Once a puppy has had its first set of vaccinations (every three weeks usually for three times total), then I believe in the 'every-three-year' rule.

In my opnion, the two dogs who've been vaccinated would be OK, but to not vaccinate a puppy? Criminal. Parvo is wayyyyy too common and easily caught (from another dog or a human tracking it in) to ignore. Shame on them!

I agree with MJ. And honestly - it's a dealbreaker to me. For them to say they'll get the other puppy vaccinated to adopt Turbo? IDK - too little too late in my opinion. and who's to say they'll CONTINUE to get everyone's vaccinations in a timely manner.

I wouldn't have any sense of comfort on this one. That's the whole purpose of doing the vet reference/check.

TxAllieGrl wrote:

Maryjo wrote:Once a puppy has had its first set of vaccinations (every three weeks usually for three times total), then I believe in the 'every-three-year' rule.

In my opnion, the two dogs who've been vaccinated would be OK, but to not vaccinate a puppy? Criminal. Parvo is wayyyyy too common and easily caught (from another dog or a human tracking it in) to ignore. Shame on them!

I agree with MJ. And honestly - it's a dealbreaker to me. For them to say they'll get the other puppy vaccinated to adopt Turbo? IDK - too little too late in my opinion. and who's to say they'll CONTINUE to get everyone's vaccinations in a timely manner.

I wouldn't have any sense of comfort on this one. That's the whole purpose of doing the vet reference/check.

I third Maryjo! Puppy vaccinations are a must. I think there is a great deal of debate regarding whether to vaccinate past the first year of life (except for rabies as required by law), but beyond the first year of life, the thing that sets off red flags for me is not that they are not vaccinating, but that they simply are not taking their dogs to the vet for at least an annual checkup. Even if you are not vaccinating, a yearly exam, fecal, and blood testing is pretty important. Popular schcmopular -- you don't do what's popular, you do what's right.

I, also, do limited vaccines. BUT Maddie had all of her puppy shots, and boosters until about 3-4yrs (when I started to do research on the topic..). AND, if you call my vet, they'll tell you that I still bring her in for check ups regularly.

The wife said that if this is a deal breaker they will take their dogs to the vet and get it done tomorrow, if they can.

Even if they take them in tomorrow.... when they adopt this dog, will they keep that one UTD on shots? And if not shots, a yearly checkup? Senior blood work? I'm a fan of being pro-active when it comes to a dogs health, not re-active But, that's just me.

I do limited vaccinations, but mine all get rabies. All of mine are also taken to the vet at least twice a year, but most of the time we are there about every month for something. I would not adopt to this family because even if they go and get the shots for the other dogs, none of them will probably be vaccinated again. I'm all for people not vaccinating if they get titers or have good reasons other then "no one does it"

Tarrington:
A couple of things are worrisome about this. !.) Rabies is the law and if I lived out in a rural area I would sure as shit be getting my dogs vaccinated or at the very least titered for immunity to rabies, parvo, distemper. I can send you some info on vaccines, but puppy shots are an absolute must. I don't vaccinate annually, but I do keep up with rabies and get the 3 year (same dose as the 1 year, actually, but the tag says it's a 3 year vaccine). I DON'T vaccinate for bordetella or lepto and I only do DHPP every three to four years and never in the same year as rabies. And once my dogs are seniors--then I only vaccinate for rabies.

Two: No vet gives out heartworm meds without doing a blood test to test for HW--at least no responsible vet does. These dogs should be getting annual check ups including fecals and annual bloodwork--regardless of whether she thinks they are healthy or not.

Three: If no one vaccinates their dogs, then it's a lead pipe cinch that at some point someone is going to bring parvo, distemper, what have you (and it could be a coon or a skunk or a coyote) and every damn dog in the community will die unnecessarily.

I'm flexible with adopters about vaccinating--within reason. But a lack of routine annual wellness care is a deal breaker in a big way.

Actually rabies in Nova Scotia is not a big deal. The incidence of contracting rabies these days, especially with indoor dogs like pugs is infinitesimal. In fact, the number of cases of rabies in the whole of Canada in the last 30 years is extremely small. The number of negative vaccine reactions (including death), on the other hand, is high.

Here's a link that shows the incidence of rabies in dogs by province in Canada for each year from 1998 to 2010. You can see that in Nova Scotia there have been only 6 reported cases of rabies in the last 13 years - 3 bats, 2 foxes and one cat. No dogs!!!
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/disemala/rabrag/statse.shtml

Nova Scotia law allows for rabies vaccinations every 3 years but some of the public may be confused because many vets are not up-to-date about recent recommended protocols and still over-vaccinate. Moreover Halifax gives a discount on licenses if pets are boostered annually (how wrong is that!).
http://www.siriusdog.com/rabies-vaccination-canada-provinces-regulations.htm

As for the other "core" shots (DHPP aka DA2PP), puppy shots are extremely important although not prescribed by law. As previously mentioned parvovirus is the most dangerous threat to puppies, is highly contagious and can kill quickly (it is not as serious for adults). The puppy should have 3 shots separated by at least 3 weeks - ideally at 8-9 weeks (not before or it will not "take"), at 11-12 weeks and at 16 weeks. They then need an adult booster one year later. This booster will be good for at least 3 years and some experts think as long as for life.

There is a place for vaccinations but the subject is not well enough understood, even by vets who still think erroneously that it is better to be safe than sorry. The dog guardian should research for themselves and help educate those veterinarians who have insufficient knowledge and no motivation to reduce the revenue they derive from frequent vaccinations.

It should be understood that there was never any scientific reason to stipulate annual vaccinations. It was decided to do that so that people would be prompted to take their dogs to the vet for an annual wellness check. The validity of having an annual wellness check remains good, despite there being no justification for annual vaccinations. A potential adopter should be evaluated on how well they will look after their dog. That includes at least annual checkups and not over-vaccinating. IMO

Pugalug Pug Rescue includes this in our adoption contract and has the right to check that it is being followed : The Adopter agrees to provide, at his or her own expense, an annual physical examination of the adopted dog by a licensed veterinarian, and shall administer all standard preventative treatment from such veterinarian.

When she said she goes annually to get Revolution, did she say specifically that she doesn't take the dogs for an annual exam at the same time (I know you said there was no record of the chihuahua, but if she just got that dog in September maybe the "annual" Revolution purchase hasn't come up yet)? Like Blanche said, I can't believe a vet would give out those meds without blood work first.
I would look at this as a great opportunity to educate this person at least about the importance of the annual checkup, and furthermore, information about vaccinations.
The fact that she is willing to take the dogs to the vet ASAP if it means being able to adopt Turbo, rather than just saying "forget it", doesn't necessarily mean she won't continue on with an annual regimen. Could you possibly add something to your adoption contract that you will check to make sure Turbo is getting proper vet care-something like Hilary posted?

pugpillow wrote:Actually rabies in Nova Scotia is not a big deal. The incidence of contracting rabies these days, especially with indoor dogs like pugs is infinitesimal. In fact, the number of cases of rabies in the whole of Canada in the last 30 years is extremely small. The number of negative vaccine reactions (including death), on the other hand, is high.

Here's a link that shows the incidence of rabies in dogs by province in Canada for each year from 1998 to 2010. You can see that in Nova Scotia there have been only 6 reported cases of rabies in the last 13 years - 3 bats, 2 foxes and one cat. No dogs!!!
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/disemala/rabrag/statse.shtml

Nova Scotia law allows for rabies vaccinations every 3 years but some of the public may be confused because many vets are not up-to-date about recent recommended protocols and still over-vaccinate. Moreover Halifax gives a discount on licenses if pets are boostered annually (how wrong is that!).
http://www.siriusdog.com/rabies-vaccination-canada-provinces-regulations.htm

As for the other "core" shots (DHPP aka DA2PP), puppy shots are extremely important although not prescribed by law. As previously mentioned parvovirus is the most dangerous threat to puppies, is highly contagious and can kill quickly (it is not as serious for adults). The puppy should have 3 shots separated by at least 3 weeks - ideally at 8-9 weeks (not before or it will not "take"), at 11-12 weeks and at 16 weeks. They then need an adult booster one year later. This booster will be good for at least 3 years and some experts think as long as for life.

There is a place for vaccinations but the subject is not well enough understood, even by vets who still think erroneously that it is better to be safe than sorry. The dog guardian should research for themselves and help educate those veterinarians who have insufficient knowledge and no motivation to reduce the revenue they derive from frequent vaccinations.

It should be understood that there was never any scientific reason to stipulate annual vaccinations. It was decided to do that so that people would be prompted to take their dogs to the vet for an annual wellness check. The validity of having an annual wellness check remains good, despite there being no justification for annual vaccinations. A potential adopter should be evaluated on how well they will look after their dog. That includes at least annual checkups and not over-vaccinating. IMO

Pugalug Pug Rescue includes this in our adoption contract and has the right to check that it is being followed : The Adopter agrees to provide, at his or her own expense, an annual physical examination of the adopted dog by a licensed veterinarian, and shall administer all standard preventative treatment from such veterinarian.

As I was doing some research on Canada and Nova Scotia, I found some of the same info that you did. Here it is:

I spoke to the couple again. The wife did not tell me this, but the “puppy” that they got in September was actually 6 months old at the time and had already received all vaccinations. I asked if she had this documented and she has a record from the breeder. I sent an email to Dagmar at the Pug Club of Canada and she didn’t necessarily see this as a red flag. She did stress the importance of having the puppy receive the vaccinations. The husband seems quite annoyed with me. He said that they don’t vaccinate for rabies in Nova Scotia because there is no rabies. So I went searching online for information. I found the following:

“While other parts of Canada have strains of rabies carried by several different animals, rabies in Nova Scotia is almost always limited to bats.”

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/anima/disemala/rabrag/statse.shtml#a2010

"The two rabies cases we've seen in the province since 1998 have been in bats, the most common carriers of the virus in Nova Scotia," said Dr. Ken Chew, a veterinarian with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.

"The vaccine is extremely effective in preventing rabies in pets, but it should be renewed every two years," said Dr. Troye
McPherson, a spokesperson for the Veterinary Medical Association of Nova Scotia and member of the Provincial Rabies Working Group. "In terms of prevention, we also encourage people not to approach strange animals and not to attract them to visit your yard by leaving out food or garbage".

http://www.ngnews.ca/Health/2007-12-19/article-316562/RABIES-CASE-PROMPTS-CONCERN/1

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/02/06/nsrabies030206.html

The couple live in this town.
http://townofyarmouth.ca/attachments/017_017_Dog_bylaw.pdf

All that information would make me a lot more comfortable with the situation.

GingerSnap wrote:All that information would make me a lot more comfortable with the situation.

Yep. I still would be concerned if (1) the vet is dispensing Revolution without a HW test and (2) I really do believe that pet owners should have their dogs in annually for a wellness check that includes bloodwork and a fecal. I'd rather see someone under vaccinate (to some degree) than over vaccinate, but the lack of an annual check up would be a real red flag for me.

First of all, I really need to thank you Blanche for taking the time to talk with me this morning. Our conversation gave me very clear direction and ultimate resolution.

I called the vet again. The same information was confirmed to me that I received yesterday. This time I asked questions about the Revolution and learned that it is an "over the counter" med that people purchase without any blood work, etc. I asked about the annual wellness check and the vet-tech actually told me that I am asking "too many invasive questions." I was offended that she was offended! She also told me that one of the couples dogs has been seen once only - in 2008. The other was seen 4X related to eating wild bird bones in the neighbours garbage. After the f/u visit in 2009 this dog has not been seen again. The vet-tech said they are "not responsible for making people bring their pets in" and "there is not a strong vet/client relationship" with this couple. Personally, I thought this vet-tech had the personality of a lamp-post, so I'm not sure what her definition of a relationship is.

Overall, there is no annual checkup and if I recall what the wife said when I spoke to her, she said "we bring them in when they get sick" and Blanche's comment on the phone "dogs are stoic" and won't show they are sick until its too far in the game, just finalized it for me.

I called the couple and he was PISSED!!! I discussed options with me contacting the vet on a yearly basis to "check" if an annual had been done and the guy lost his sh*t on me.

Soooooo....Turbo is going to finish his bully-stick and take a nap. I'm going to breathe.

juneau hunter wrote:First of all, I really need to thank you Blanche for taking the time to talk with me this morning. Our conversation gave me very clear direction and ultimate resolution.

I called the vet again. The same information was confirmed to me that I received yesterday. This time I asked questions about the Revolution and learned that it is an "over the counter" med that people purchase without any blood work, etc. I asked about the annual wellness check and the vet-tech actually told me that I am asking "too many invasive questions." I was offended that she was offended! She also told me that one of the couples dogs has been seen once only - in 2008. The other was seen 4X related to eating wild bird bones in the neighbours garbage. After the f/u visit in 2009 this dog has not been seen again. The vet-tech said they are "not responsible for making people bring their pets in" and "there is not a strong vet/client relationship" with this couple. Personally, I thought this vet-tech had the personality of a lamp-post, so I'm not sure what her definition of a relationship is.

Overall, there is no annual checkup and if I recall what the wife said when I spoke to her, she said "we bring them in when they get sick" and Blanche's comment on the phone "dogs are stoic" and won't show they are sick until its too far in the game, just finalized it for me.

I called the couple and he was PISSED!!! I discussed options with me contacting the vet on a yearly basis to "check" if an annual had been done and the guy lost his sh*t on me.

Soooooo....Turbo is going to finish his bully-stick and take a nap. I'm going to breathe.

You know, a lot of rescue is gut feelings-sounds like you had one and you dug around more.

Also, you are officially welcomed to the Rescue Club when you get yelled at by someone, Tarrington so...congratulations.

Tarrington - kudos to you for doing your homework, and for researching, reviewing and rethinking. There are certainly some different considerations at play, and I think you took the right steps in evaluating them all.

The vet tech sounds uninformed...and the guy sounds like he thinks it's his right to own pets, rather than a priviledge.

The fact is you are charged with making sure Turbo doesn't end up in rescue all over again. And if you can't be reassured that he'll get the health checks he needs, to hopefully catch a medical issue before it snowballs into some huge expensive medical issue (and he gets surrendered b/c they can't afford the vet bills), well, then it just isn't the right place for a rescue dog to be placed.

The right home will come along for Turbo. You did the right thing IMO.

Sounds like you stood your ground and did whats best for Turbo,

yup, been yelled at many times in rescue. I can still remember one guy that kept calling all day for two days to tell me what a great owner he was etc. etc. It was not fun!

I am so glad you stood your ground and did your research. Turbo thanks you even though he has no idea what happened!

I'm glad you're doing what is best for Turbo, and took the time to really make the right decision-for you and for him.
The right home will come along for him, and when it does you won't have any doubts.

I just want to second Saira's welcome to rescue. You aren't really a rescuer until some dumbwad yells at you for being responsible. There's no sin in being a vigilant guardian of a foster dog.

Sounds like the right decision, Tarrington. And personally, I'm very cautious about over the counter flea/tick/heartworm meds--and it sounds like maybe it's not even heartworm meds since I wasn't aware you could even get them OTC.

And here's another little concern that popped into my head as I was re-reading this thread. I do kind of wonder how his dog got into the neighbour's garbage in order to eat the wild bird bones. Yards unfenced? Dogs out unsupervised? You and I both know that pugs will eat absolutely anything and if neighbour garbage is readily available, then likely Turbo would be there eating away. Cooked bird bones could easily have killed that dog.

They may be perfectly fine people, but I do wonder if they are vigilant enough. And I had someone from Nova Scotia try to surrender a pug to me several years ago--had moved there recently and didn't want to use the local rescue cause the people "down here are all hicks". Wonder if this is the same couple? Not likely, but they got really snarly with me when I told them I couldn't take an out of province dog and suggested they contact Pug Club of Canada.

TxAllieGrl wrote:Tarrington - kudos to you for doing your homework, and for researching, reviewing and rethinking. There are certainly some different considerations at play, and I think you took the right steps in evaluating them all.

The vet tech sounds uninformed...and the guy sounds like he thinks it's his right to own pets, rather than a priviledge.

The fact is you are charged with making sure Turbo doesn't end up in rescue all over again. And if you can't be reassured that he'll get the health checks he needs, to hopefully catch a medical issue before it snowballs into some huge expensive medical issue (and he gets surrendered b/c they can't afford the vet bills), well, then it just isn't the right place for a rescue dog to be placed.

The right home will come along for Turbo. You did the right thing IMO.

My thoughts exactly!

Hugs to you TJ. You gotta do what is right for the pugs, first and foremost. The right home is waiting for Turbo. It can take a while, but when it happens, you will know all the waiting was worth it.

Merci beaucoup!! Thank you to everyone for being such a great support. Rescue is such a raw and emotional place. I'm going to sleep good tonight knowing my Turbo is safe and sound.

Tarrington, sounds like you helped Turbo dodge a bullet! Good for you and welcome to the dark side of rescue. Now you've really earned your angel wings.