Ollie

I need everyone's opinion...

Back in November, while looking for a large breed dog...we found Ollie and brought him home to live with us...Everything is great...no issues with the pugs or anything else...Fast forward to April or May and he starts showing his aggression...If Fred or I tell him to come or get out of the kids room...he growls at us...he quickly found out that I am not afraid of him...
He has suddenly become obsessed with Brittni my 18 year old sister...he refuses to leave her room and follows her everywhere...

Today I brought home some bones for all the dogs and he was chewing one and Seneca sat on the bed next to him and he bit her hand...the holes are quite deep...an hour before that he snapped at Jerrod because he was petting him while he was sleeping...he has been getting weird since April and there has been no change in anything with the house...

Am I an awful person to call a Golden Rescue and surrender him??? I feel awful...but I am having a hard time knowing the he bit my daughter and she wasn't even looking at him...

Please give me your opinions...

Jess, First let me say I am sorry you are going through this and sorry for poor Seneca's hand.

I think honestly you are the only one that can answer your question. No you would not be horrible for surrendering him to rescue if that is what is best for your family.

However, this is what I think. Dogs are a big commitment and especially a large dog when you have children, if you aren't ready to give up on him, I would suggest sitting down the kids and letting them know that you are working to retrain Ollie and give them the "rules". Set some rules based on what you know are his triggers, honestly if someone was trying to pet ME when I was sleeping I'd probably try to bite them too I know that is something I am guilty of myself, but really we should let our animals sleep and not bother them. Ollie may have been so out of it from being asleep that he was just being defensive protecting himself. I can not explain why he bit Seneca, but it sounds like there are things in the house that bother him and he maybe was just fed up. I think since he's been such a good dog so far, some rules in the house with the kids, separation and training could go a long way.

Is he crate trained? That might be a good idea if he's not so that he can get some quiet down time without the kids and little dogs bothering him.

To me I would try the training because after all you wanted a big dog and if you invest the time and training in him and it works then it's a win-win for everybody.

In my experience, once a dogs start biting in aggression, it is very difficult to break his of that habit. I've seen it a lot in rescues that were "damaged" in some way in their previous life. There is some synapse that fires at any given time and that is their first response. The fact that he is biting hard and not just a warning or play bite concerns me. I have very rarely seen a dog overcome this issue completely, and in the worst cases, the dog just got worse until they did some pretty significant damage to someone else - person or dog.

You can start with a trainer and see if things improve that way, but do you want to take the risk that he will bite someone else?

First, I'm very sorry. This is not a situation anyone ever wants to be in. If you have any plans on keeping him, first get to a vet and make sure there is nothing medical going on to account for the biting--like a neurological issue or a thyroid problem.

Then if medical is clear, get a GOOD canine behaviourist who isn't a Cesar Milan fan. Trust me, rough handling, leash popping, alpha rolling and all of his other neanderthal tactics may suppress behaviour for a while, but won't fix it.

If you do decide to think about surrendering him to a rescue, let me speak to this from the rescue stand point--or at least where our rescue is. We flat out won't take a dog that has a bite record, especially to children. It is a lawsuit waiting to happen. If we adopt out a dog that we KNOW has bitten, even if we didn't see the behaviour in the rescue, then we can be sued--if not by the adopter, then by the neighbour or the mailman or whoever. I don't know what the policy is of your local Golden rescue, but most rescues up here won't take a biter. There are just too many other dogs in need.

The reality is that I can never guarantee that a dog that has bitten won't bite again and if he is triggered by children, he is just an unsafe dog. Not what anyone wants to hear, but in many instances, it is the reality.

I`m glad that you are taking this seriously. It`s an awful place to be.

Thanks Ladies...

I know we have started different things with him since May...but it seems as though he doesn't want to play by our rules...for instance today when we ran to town...we shut the living room door off and the bedroom door and he has run of the kitchen and dining room and laundry room...he tried running into the bedroom and my husband went into get him and he growled as he slunk real low to the ground...he finally came when I called him form the kitchen but he wasn't moving while my husband was there...

I honestly couldn't try and rehome him to any family knowing that he has been aggressive...I did put a call into the local rescue and hopefully they will call me back...or at least give me some ideas...

We don't know what kind of treatment he was given before we got him...we do know that he is deathly afraid of shoes in someone's hands...if we are cleaning and someone picks up a shoe he takes off...quickly...which makes me so sad...as we have never hit him with anything since he has been here...

We do love him and whatever we decide to do will be because we want what is best for him and the family!!! I was just hoping that I wasn't being rash...

The other thing that may be happening is that Ollie is now comfortable enough and feeling sufficiently settled that you are now seeing the REAL dog. It can take as long as 6 months to a year for some dogs to stop being careful and start being themselves. That's not good news, if the real Ollie is aggressive. And I'd be really careful with the pugs. Just because Ollie hasn't done anything to them, doesn't mean he won't. Aggression, on some levels, is aggression and he may bite the pug that runs into him while sleeping.

You need professional help in all this. I got it when I realized Lola was an aggressive dog--it's too hard to figure it out when it's your dog, in your house, biting your family. Get some recommendations about a good aggression specialist. AND ask them to be honest with you about the chances of managing or rehabbing this dog.

I'll tell you now--I live with a biter and it is alot of work. If Lola were 90 lbs instead of 9 lbs, I would have euthanized her. Managing a biter is a real juggling act of prevention, anticipation and flat out management of the dog, the space and who's around.

Finally, and people hate it when I say this, but humane euthanization of an aggressive dog is NOT the worst thing that can happen to that dog. I think most aggressive dogs that can't be managed or trained are deeply miserable animals. Their quality of life is zilch since no one can ever relax--not you, not the other dogs and not the aggressive dog. When I've put down an aggressive dog, I knew that it was a better life than what they were looking at--always muzzled, always on leash, always contained, never really free.

I didn't realize you'd rescued Ollie and he has a "past" I think Blanche is a great resource and gives wise advice.

Does the rescue you got him from know about the bite?

Here is a hug and thinking of you while you figure out what to do.

One reson I just wasn't willing to foster for mastiff rescue, just too big if something like this was to happen. You are not being rash, you need to protect your children first, no question.

Can't offer any advice because I've never had big dogs, but I do agree that it's so unpredicable when you rescue. Even though we got Chester when he was YOUNG, about 6 months, and he's almost 8 years old now, Karl and I are still amazed at things that trigger odd behavior in Chester that we KNOW is from his previous life. We're positive he was hit during training, which has led him to being leash aggressive and if you ever swat a magazine or a newspaper, Chester runs for the hills and it's hell to coax him back in the house. It is an ordeal to kill a fly in our house. One of us has to take Chester upstairs while the other one hunts the fly. And Chester snaps, he doesn't bite, but he definitely snaps at people and other dogs.

Like Blanche said about Lola, if Chester weren't a little runt, it would have been very hard to raise him in our house. He would have needed tons and tons of professional training and a lot more work on our part.

I can only imagine how stressful this is. Thinking of you and hoping that a solution can be found.

Sorry I'm a bit late to the party but I'm just reading this thread. My brother had a 90 lb. rescue greyhound who started out growling at the kids. I warned him to get some training but he didn't listen. A year later, he was up here visiting us and his wife took the dog to a friend's house for dinner. He killed the friend's cat. Still they didn't get him any help and eventually he attacked a guest in their home and sent her to the emergency room. Then they decided to euthanize him - who would adopt a 9 yr. old aggressive greyhound? But they called the people from whom they had adopted him and they were told to bring him back. Don't you know they put him back on their web site for adoption with no mention of his aggression? My brother was furious! he fought them and they ended up blackballing him for returning the dog! They had to travel to another state to get another greyhound. This one is sweet and gentle and thinks she's a lap dog! But the point is that you've been warned. Seldom does the situation improve without professional intervention.
On the other hand, we have a rescue I call the permanent foster. He showed signs of fear aggression and the rescue's vet, who had never laid eyes on him, wanted to put him down. Instead we kept him (our only option) and worked and worked with him. And now he's a sweetheart! He learned from my "pack" (3 other pugs and a husky) what was acceptable behavior. Mind you, the rescue had adopted him out and he had a fight with a big dog and lost an eye before we decided to truly "rescue" him. So sometimes aggression is fixable but Blanche is right - sometimes it's not.

Man, this just sucks. I hope your daughters hand is feeling okay, and that she is doing well. As much as I love my critters...the kids come first. I don't think I could trust him anymore. Good luck to you in finding the best solution

An update on this...we are working with him...after talking to the rescue and her telling me that they won't even discuss putting him in Rescue and that I should probably just have him put down...which really isn't an option at this point...we are trying...He is a great dog...I had not given bones to any of the dogs because Pozie stalks everyone and when they aren't looking she gathers them and lays on them...I was trying to be nice and let them have a snack...and he went crazy...

So no bones here...he is still trying to be dominant with my sisters room and he gets told that he isn't boss and is made to leave the room...he is no longer allowed on her bed...because once he is up there...he growls if you tell him to get down...

We haven't had any more growling issues toward the kids...and we are all trying to work with him and continue to keep him with the family...

My kids were broken hearted when we had to have the talk about maybe placing him somewhere else...so right now we are all committed with trying to make it work...

Best of luck, Jessica. Do think about a good aggression specialist if you can afford it--most aren't cheap. I hope that you see improvements in Ollie.
And it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if you had to muzzle him from time to time just for down time for everyone.

Good luck. It really is not something one would expect from a Golden. However a friend of mine bought a Flatcoat some time ago and he was vicious. She got him as a puppy.

She got a behaviourist round who said that training might work but in the end she could not risk keeping him as her young niece was a regular visitor. In her case the breeder took him back and has since had a lot of trouble with him.

I hope you all don't think I am putting my kids or the pugs in jeopardy...he has never one time been aggressive towards the pugs...NEVER...it is just the humans...he has only bitten the one time...and it just so happened connected well...he growls at myself and my husband but has never snapped at us...but he has just become dominant with my sisters room...If he was to bite one of the kids again...he will be gone...don't know where but we will refuse to keep him ...

Please don't think that I am a bad mom...but he deserves a chance and we want to give it to him...and it is a family effort...

I don't think you're a bad mom at all-- I see you as a mom who's trying to do the right thing for everyone!

GingerSnap wrote:I don't think you're a bad mom at all-- I see you as a mom who's trying to do the right thing for everyone!

Ditto. I just made the caution about the pugs because I have seen aggression spread to include the other resident dogs.

I always like to prepare for the worst case scenario.