Yeast, Allergies and Other ickies.

I have two dogs with significant allergies--food, seasonal and contact. Neither can tolerate kibble for long due to their allergies to many plants and botanicals--so the really good kibbles are actually worse for them due to all the botanicals in them. One is okay with any fowl as long as it isn't turkey or chicken, the other reacts to all fowl--including duck, pheasant and quail.

Neither do well with beef, but one tolerates bison. I tend to feed as unique a protein as I can find--fish, elk, venison, lamb, boar, goat.
One of my two dogs also reacts to salmon so I can only use fish and fish oils with no salmon in them.

Yeast LOVES sugar so you need to avoid any foods that convert to sugar and any high glycemic veggies as well as all fruits. Carrots--although relatively high sugar, tend to not be as bad as potato or fruits. And no dairy.

My guys are fed a raw diet. Mostly a whole carcass diet that has no fruits or vegs added to it. 75% of their meals consist of this with the other 25 % made up of raw that is 80% meat and 20% veg. I also supplement with Holistic Blend Seagreens Powder, a non-dairy/lactose free acidophilus called Dophilus Plus made by SISU. They also get herring oil (Noble makes one) and I generally give 3 to 4 times the recommended dosage (On the advice of my homeopathic vet) to help with skin issues as well a joints and immune support. Both of these dogs have crappy immune systems for different reasons.

Both dogs were on LONG courses of cephalexin--6 to 8 weeks. I have not tried either Ketoconazole or Itraconazole with these dogs although both are recommended for systemic yeast problems. Itraconazole is considered the most effective, but is outrageously expensive and can impact on a dog's liver. Since both my yeast dogs are seniors and had pre-existing issues, I opted not to go with Itraconazole.

Initially I did bathe both dogs with Nizoral shampoo about once a week for a month to kill off the yeast on the skin. Then I tried not to bathe them very often as another thing yeast loves is damp. I do use Malaceptic wipes on the pug as he has a deep nose fold and lots of loose skin that often cover his neck and it gets damp and yeasty in there.

I'm going to copy and paste my yeast procedure for Tank in a separate post to this one. I do essentially the same thing for Theo (the shih tzu). While what I do may not be necessary for you, it is what has worked for me, but both of my allergy dogs came to me as senior dogs with a lifetime of allergies that had not been appropriately managed.

These initial notes are now over a year old. We've made good progress with both dogs and their yeast issues. Tank is now 11.5 and Theo is 13.

I took Tank to a homeopathic vet for a fresh perspective on his various issues. Tank came to me at age 8.5 with hypothyroidism, a history of severe allergies, yeast infections and on massive doses of prednisone (20 mgs a day at one point). He has improved, but we still struggle with ongoing yeast infections and lately, with staph infections. Before going on to using something really dramatic like Itraconazole, I wanted to eliminate all of our other options first.
* asterisks are updates on what we’ve tried and how it’s worked

She feels that all of his issues are likely immune mediated. Increasingly, vets are thinking that most if not all thyroid issues are immune mediated. She also felt (and this was news to me) that his thyroid level of 33--which is smack in the middle of normal--is too high for a dog his age. She said most vets would be happy with that, but she feels and specialists she consults confirm this--that a hypothyroid dog his age should be in the 20s rather than the 30s. I don't have any further explanation for it, but she said that at some point, we may wish to reduce his meds for thyroid to get him into the 20s but wanted to wait (since it's not urgent) until we'd done some other things first.

She also wants to try him on lactose free Prozyme (a digestive enzyme supplement). She feels that for a lot of yeast dogs a big issue is the gut and says that she has found doubling or tripling the suggested dose of Prozyme often solves or significantly reduces yeast in dogs. We will start very slowly and see how he does since we know he can be plant sensitive. While she'd love to get him off of pred altogether, she said that the dose he's on is so low (1.25 mgs every third day) and given his seasonal allergies, that complete removal of pred may not be possible.
*We tried the Prozyme, but unfortunately, the first ingredient is rice starch and he reacted to that so we’ve stopped the Prozyme. Not sure what we’ll try next—maybe bromelian.
**We’ve started bromelian and so far he seems okay with it. I still use the bromelian occasionally, but he has responded well to Holistic Blend Seagreens Powder. I add it to his meals every other day.

She would also like to try him on an immune support supplement which does not boost immune, but supports it. She didn't have the name off the top of her head, but will let me know. Again, it will be a go slow deal with him.
*We are going to try him on a Centaur VA product called Immuno-support.
**Due to the onset of his seasonal allergies, we’re waiting to start him on the Immuno-support till his seasonal stuff settles down as I won’t be able to tell what is seasonal and is reaction to the immune-support. We use the Immuno-Support three times a week, ½ capsule. So far no issues.

She wants him off of all dairy--said that yeast LOVES dairy and that any benefit a yeast dog gets from the acidophilus is lost by the dairy aspects. She says that dairy is not part of a dog’s normal “wild” diet and so they often aren’t able to use it appropriately so she never recommends anything with Lactose in it. So he's getting a dairy free acidophilus made by SISU. Any meds he gets in a capsule, she wants removed from the capsule as he could be reacting to the capsule. She has also asked that he eat NO fruits at all and no vegetables that are glycemic--pumpkin, sweet potato, turnip, etc. Carrots he can have for although they are technically sugary, they aren't high glycemic vegs. His treats from now on in are raw vegetables ONLY--she suggested green beans and zucchini. NO commercial treats no matter how high quality. She also suggested that he not get any dehydrated meats--including any of my home made ones. He does get some dehydrated meats now and as long as I stick with a single protein, he does fine.

She found it interesting that his ears, nose fold and feet aren't yeasty. And wondered if some of his issues are contact based. She wants him not to be in a harness that covers much of his neck or chest and suggested that I throw out his puppia as she feels the artificial fabric doesn't breathe and can't be cleaned sufficiently to be safe for a dog as compromised as he is (YIKES--of course, I just bought him a new one a week ago.) She suggested that the less fabric touching him the better so she'd prefer he not have coats, sweaters, or lie on any dog bed that is made from "chemical" fabrics--she did say that there is a remote possibility that he might be allergic to cotton--we know he's allergic to wool.

I am also to clean and wash ONLY with baking soda--no vinegar and no borax. She suggested that I only clean my floors with boiling hot water--and maybe some baking soda--as she's seen dogs react to vinegar. I'm to watch how he lies on stuff and see if the fact that his neck, chest and belly are the most hairless and itchy may be related to where and what he is lying on. She also told me to get rid any fleece type things that he might lie on. We'll start with cotton only fabrics with him and see where we get from there. It’s also possible that he’s not reacting to the “fake” fabrics, but that they don’t let his skin get as much air so encourages yeast growth.

*His itching seems to be most intense right after he gets up from a nap—chest, neck and arm pits especially. Given the way he sleeps, his arm pits and neck are often “sweaty” when he gets up so that may be part of the problem. Dr. Benson thinks it may be contact allergies, but might be that the fabric is contributing to his itchiness. We can’t clean the fabrics he lies on sufficiently to kill the yeast and other bacteria without using harsh chemicals, so we are going to try changing his bedding frequently and throwing out or boiling what he’s lying on. I’m trying 100% cotton crib sheets and washing them daily.

**I do still cover all the dog beds with 100% cotton crib sheets and I wash them often--but now only every third day as opposed to every day.

She wants all bathing stopped and he's not to go swimming at Canine Wellness (this is a canine physiotherapist) any longer. She says she doesn't want him wet. Period. She said that if I feel he needs relief from the itching and must bathe him then to let him soak in a dilute caffeine free green tea solution.
* I do still bathe him occasionally when the yeast smell is high. I use Nizoral shampoo and it helps. But his bathing is infrequent—4 to 6 times a year.

She'd like me to switch his fish oil from salmon to herring as she wonders if he's become sensitive to salmon.
*he IS sensitive to salmon. We’ve had a decrease in itching since ditching the salmon oil

She thinks that his weight gain is partly due to his metabolism having slowed down tremendously. And thinks that a digestive enzyme may help him process food better and increase his metabolism to some degree. She feels that given what he's eating, the weight gain indicates poor usage. So we may reduce his intake marginally or spread his current intake out over three meals rather than two. She thinks that might also help kick his metabolism into gear.
I ended up putting him on a whole carcass diet. He eats that for 75% of his meals. His other 25% are the regular raw with botanicals or veggies. I’ve been using Tollden Farms which has been okay with him. There has been a reduction in smell and itching with the switch to primarily whole carcass (I use Carnivora whole carcass).

Good grief, Blanche. Good luck just remembering all that stuff. Hope it helps with the itchies.

sallyandtilly wrote:Good grief, Blanche. Good luck just remembering all that stuff. Hope it helps with the itchies.

Well, this has been a 3 year project as he was in dreadful shape. We have conquered most of his issues and while he will never be off of prednisone, his dose is down to 1.25 mgs every other or every third day from 20 mgs a day. He has been on such high doses for so long that we suspect his adrenals aren't functional any longer so he needs the pred to function. His thyroid issues improved dramatically when we got his pred dose down.

He's much better than he was and has gone from an entire body of black skin, to mostly pink with some black mottling that may never go away. His ears and neck are mostly free of yeast and his neck only gets yeasty when it gets damp and sweaty--so I keep a towel handy for drying his neck after he gets up from a nap and after drinking water as he tends to dribble it down his front.

I do still change the dog bedding regularly although no longer every day.

Just want to quickly add - I have had good success treating with Ketaconozole and Cephalexin, as a starting point.

Obviously, there is no point to medication, if you cannot find and eliminate the allergen for the future.

I wonder why the contradiction between no dairy, and yet yoghurt is supposed to be so good at treating yeast. Blanche, have you found the non-dairy probiotics to be helpful?

Renee wrote:Just want to quickly add - I have had good success treating with Ketaconozole and Cephalexin, as a starting point.

Obviously, there is no point to medication, if you cannot find and eliminate the allergen for the future.

I wonder why the contradiction between no dairy, and yet yoghurt is supposed to be so good at treating yeast. Blanche, have you found the non-dairy probiotics to be helpful?

Yes, I have. The reality is that what helps yeast in yogourt is the acidophilus, but many dogs simply cannot process dairy adequately to get the benefit from it. So the Dophilus Plus has helped a lot with a host of issues. I don't generally feed dairy to my dogs in any case, but was using an acidophilus capsule--but didn't know to go for non-dairy/lactose free. Now I do and I think it has helped.

Hmmm Tilly gets yogurt every morning. Maybe I need to rethink that.

sallyandtilly wrote:Hmmm Tilly gets yogurt every morning. Maybe I need to rethink that.

Sally, we used to feed yogurt also, as well as Sea Meal supplement, a multi vitimin, and a high quality kibble that was packed with stuff, etc. And then Bruno showed up with all sorts of problems, and all three kept having ear infection issues. It's been a few years in the doing, mostly because I kept thinking that the solution to whatever the pugs were going through was to give more of this or that, but I've kind of switched my thinking into just keeping it simple and giving them less (fewer ingredients, fewer to no supplements, etc.) and they seem to have fewer issues as a result [knock on wood].

It's so hard to find a balance with these guys and most vets, even the really good ones, simply are not educated or well versed in how much nutrition impacts these pugs.

Kendie, we give Tilly Plaqueoff with her yogurt which is made with sea weed. Darn I would hate to quit giving her that. It does seem to help her teeth. Gosh it's hard to figure out these problem children.

sallyandtilly wrote:Kendie, we give Tilly Plaqueoff with her yogurt which is made with sea weed. Darn I would hate to quit giving her that. It does seem to help her teeth. Gosh it's hard to figure out these problem children.

Can you put the Plaqueoff in something else? Canned or in a sardine?

northernwitch wrote:

sallyandtilly wrote:Kendie, we give Tilly Plaqueoff with her yogurt which is made with sea weed. Darn I would hate to quit giving her that. It does seem to help her teeth. Gosh it's hard to figure out these problem children.

Can you put the Plaqueoff in something else? Canned or in a sardine?

Probably. She would probably just eat it plain, but would inhale it and end up coughing.

northernwitch wrote:

Renee wrote:Just want to quickly add - I have had good success treating with Ketaconozole and Cephalexin, as a starting point.

Obviously, there is no point to medication, if you cannot find and eliminate the allergen for the future.

I wonder why the contradiction between no dairy, and yet yoghurt is supposed to be so good at treating yeast. Blanche, have you found the non-dairy probiotics to be helpful?

Yes, I have. The reality is that what helps yeast in yogourt is the acidophilus, but many dogs simply cannot process dairy adequately to get the benefit from it. So the Dophilus Plus has helped a lot with a host of issues. I don't generally feed dairy to my dogs in any case, but was using an acidophilus capsule--but didn't know to go for non-dairy/lactose free. Now I do and I think it has helped.

And so, is this a dog supplement? Or a people supplement? I wonder where I could find it? I would love to be giving it to my foster Winston. I think it would help him a lot.

Renee wrote:

northernwitch wrote:

Renee wrote:Just want to quickly add - I have had good success treating with Ketaconozole and Cephalexin, as a starting point.

Obviously, there is no point to medication, if you cannot find and eliminate the allergen for the future.

I wonder why the contradiction between no dairy, and yet yoghurt is supposed to be so good at treating yeast. Blanche, have you found the non-dairy probiotics to be helpful?

Yes, I have. The reality is that what helps yeast in yogourt is the acidophilus, but many dogs simply cannot process dairy adequately to get the benefit from it. So the Dophilus Plus has helped a lot with a host of issues. I don't generally feed dairy to my dogs in any case, but was using an acidophilus capsule--but didn't know to go for non-dairy/lactose free. Now I do and I think it has helped.

And so, is this a dog supplement? Or a people supplement? I wonder where I could find it? I would love to be giving it to my foster Winston. I think it would help him a lot.

The Dophilus Plus is a human supplement made by SISU. I order it online as I can get a bigger quantity for a better price--but most decent health food stores carry some form of lactose free/non-dairy acidophilus.

BUT you could try the Holistic Blend Seagreens Powder. It has probiotics and digestive enzymes and might be the ticket as well. It is a supplement for dogs

sallyandtilly wrote:

northernwitch wrote:

sallyandtilly wrote:Kendie, we give Tilly Plaqueoff with her yogurt which is made with sea weed. Darn I would hate to quit giving her that. It does seem to help her teeth. Gosh it's hard to figure out these problem children.

Can you put the Plaqueoff in something else? Canned or in a sardine?

Probably. She would probably just eat it plain, but would inhale it and end up coughing.

Sally - both my boys get Plaque Off. I just bung the powder on their breakfast, but their kibble is flooded with water so I don't have inhaling issues. Alternatively I could mix it in with the salmon mousse I top the kibble with.

I think we will try just mixing the plaqueoff with a little water. I don't think she will have a problem with that.

So after reading this, I'm thinking Onyx has more of a contact allergy than anything. He does sleep in the bed something my girl friend would rather not happen. Most of the time he sleeps under the blankets by my feet, my sheets are cotton, I wonder if he could have a cotton allergy as well (even detergent). Onyx too after a nap or after sleeping all night and waking up in the morning he seem to be at his itchiest. The picture I posted on the other thread is just the start of it, it tends to get much worse. When the vet puts him on Cephalexin and a cream it ALWAYS clears up but when he comes off of it 7 to 14 days later, the yeast is back within 2 days max and the itching starts almost immediately.

Onyx right now is fed grain free kibble. I've always had him on high end stuff like wellness or dick van patton's natural balance, nutro. I've switched his food several times over the years from chicken, beef, venison, duck, different brands, you name it. The vet recently had him on a duck formula that I bought through them but I've never seen any improvement no matter what I'm feeding him. Like I said I've always given him carrots so this is something I now realize I should stop that, I have been doing the carrot thing all along. My vet has told me it was fine, even when he was on their "special diet". I know to listen more to people who have gone through similar things as I am. My vet doesn't like when I ask about certain things and always goes strongly against what I want to try and what I think in general. The selling point on choosing my vet 5 years ago was that he grew up with pugs and still has a pug. I figured great, if I have any issues (knowing the breed and they can cost a lot of money) down the road this guys going to know exactly what I am going through and can probably fix these issues. Come to find out after 5 years at this office, he is clueless with almost everything and gives me the same temporary fixes but doesn't go any further than that. He says all pugs he sees are generally healthy and his pugs growing up and the one he has now are and were as healthy as can be, but almost every person I talk to out and about with a pug have all had some sort of skin issue or something along those lines, it's a pug thing and I know you guys can feel my pain.

With all this said, where do I start? What would you guys do?

I will leave the food advice to the very knowledgeable food experts here, but if you think it may be a contact allergy and he is at his worst waking up, then I would suggest trying to eliminate detergent as a potential allergen before trying to eliminate types of fabrics.

If you use Tide, that detergent in particular contains some chemicals that are problematic and it can trigger reactions in a surprising large number of people (and I assume pets also). I know that people with babies who are detergent sensitive have great luck with Dreft, but Dreft can get expensive (it's a little cheaper at Target). ALL Laundry Detergent also has a Free and Clear brand that is good -- we use that detergent a lot. You may also want to think about eliminating fabric softeners and bleach while you test out the detergent allergy theory, and look for a hypoallergenic, fragrance free dryer sheet.

Then see where that leaves you.

Our Bruno has a grass allergy. Who woulda thunk? It took us years to figure that out.

It's possible it is contact allergies, Tom, but I wouldn't assume it's cotton. It could be but that would be a last assumption I'd make.

Tank has multiple allergies and part of the reason he can't eat kibble is that it just has too many ingredients and he reacts to alot of the healthy botanicals in the no grain kibbles. We call him the anti-nature pug.

So here's what I'd do. If you are going to put him on an antibiotic--and it might not be a bad idea. Then I'd go with ketonconazole--I haven't used it, but others have for yeast and it seems effective. I'm not sure how long a course you can do on it, however. IF you opt for Cephalexin then he needs a LONG course of it--at least a month.

I'd also seriously think about raw feeding. Or canned with the fewest ingredients possible. Stay away from chicken and beef as they are the two most common protein allergies. Watch out for ingredients that are hay fever plants for humans--like chicory, alfalfa, burdock, chamomile, etc. Tank can't tolerate any of those.

Then I'd look at environmental issues--and cleaning products would be the first thing I'd look at. No scented detergents or dryer sheets. I use borax and baking soda for laundry for the dogs. I have been able to put bleach back into the mix, but only after I got Tank's itchiness under better control. And I wash all the dog stuff in hot, hot water. At one point, I was boiling the crib sheets on the stove in a canning pot as I needed to kill the yeast and staph and my washing machine wasn't likely getting hot enough to kill it. But I don't know that you have to go that far yet.

Avoid dairy, fruits and high glycemic veggies. Carrots are high in sugar, but my homeopathic vet felt that weren't major culprits. However, I eliminated them any way just to be safe. I do feed dehydrated organ meats--lung, liver, tripe--as treats.

Watch out for things like smoked bones and bullysticks. While they are great chewies for most dogs, some allergy dogs will react to the smoking process used for these bones. I tend to use marrow bones with the marrow removed (too rich and fatty for my senior citizens) and many folks have had good success with elk and deer antlers as chewies.

None of my dogs wear anything in the house--not a harness and not a collar (actually, they never wear collars). And I do wash Tank's harness frequently.

Hilary (pugpillow on this forum) used Purell hand sanitizer on either Gooey or Farnsworth's green itchy areas in the groin (similar to what it looks like Onyx has in the picture). She found this very effective for the green crud.

Nizoral is the shampoo I have used for Tank. It has ketonconazole in it and was pretty effective for getting his worst yeasty phases under control.

You may also find that Onyx has seasonal allergies--Tank and Theo do. When I get stuffy and nasaly in the spring and fall so do they get itchy. I'm careful about them walking in dry leaves due to the mold factor. And I don't let them walk on any place that uses fertilizer or weed killer. I've used Reactine for their seasonal allergies and that has been pretty effective.

Some folks have also used Vanectyl-P--which does have prednisone in it, I think. We used it with Theo initially until we were able to get his diet and other yeast issues under control. He's been off it for over a year now.

Feel free to ask any questions.

And in defense of your vet--he's not steering you wrong deliberately. Most vets just don't know alot about nutrition for starters or the impact of food on allergy issues. They give the advice they were trained to give. It's not always about being money grubbing jerks.
If you can find a good homeopathic vet in your area, it's worth getting a consult.

Tom - your vet may be very good with pugs. What we've found is that most aren't so good on the whole nutrition/food front, and how that can cause medical issues - from allergies to other things.

So don't toss out a good vet that you're happy with for other things, but do exactly what you're doing here - find out from others what's worked, and what hasn't.

Kudos to you for not giving up!!

Just want to add here (as I've said before), ketaconazole has worked well for me, with two yeasty dogs. You will need a long dose. At least 3-4 weeks is what I do, and yes, the cephalexin too.

My current foster is coming off both of these in the next week. You can see a picture of some of his allergies on the rescue section that I posted.

Blanche - I need to find some of that shampoo!

Renee wrote:Just want to add here (as I've said before), ketaconazole has worked well for me, with two yeasty dogs. You will need a long dose. At least 3-4 weeks is what I do, and yes, the cephalexin too.

Blanche - I need to find some of that shampoo!

Renee--I get it in our local drug store. It's usually kept where all the dandruff, seborrhea shampoos are.

There's a relatively easy way to determine whether your dog has food intolerances/allergies or seasonal allergies. Food intolerances will not not usually respond well to prednisone where seasonal allergies will. Unless, of course, the dog has both; then you will get inconclusive results.