Other dog aggression--need help!

So I have had Beatrice about a month, of which much of last week was spent at the vet getting spayed and waiting for the fumigation to be finished at my house (termite tenting). Anyway, I have been having some issues with her (most minor stuff that patience and consistency will cure). I know that no one ever really trained her, but she is a sweet girl and I am quite attached to her. She is about a year and a half old. She is wonderful with people, she loves everyone.

But she is AWFUL with other dogs. I have to walk her, as I dont have a yard. And when she sees another dog, she goes berserk--barking, tugging, writhing and twisting to get at the other dog. Most dog owners will make a hasty retreat but tonight this stupid woman just stood there with her little dog while I was trying to restrain Beatrice from eating the other dog. Beatrice just got wilder and wilder. Eventually, I got bitten as Beatrice just was snapping and snarling at anything--I dont think Beatrice even realized what she was doing by then, she was so out of control. Not a good time. Bite wasnt serious but next time it could be. I have tried saying "NO", reassuring her, petting her, holding her back, nothing works. She is NOT being "enthusiastic" to see another dog, she is wanting to take them out. If she even hears a dog bark, she goes all stiff and begins to bark--a very sharp bark, different from her usual bark.

She is a rescue and was with another dog--they fought ALL the time and Beatrice had puncture marks on her neck and legs from the other dog. I dont know who was instigating it but she certainly did not have a good experience. I am thinking of hiring a trainer but in the meantime, I would appreciate any help you can give!

PS I was reading the thread about aggressive rescues and I am fine with you telling me that I am doing things wrong or whatever. I am a new dog owner and I realize I dont know crap. But I am committed to Bea and I will learn what I need to know and carry it through. So if there are things you see that I am doing, please tell me!

Hi and welcome. Here is a thread that has some good suggestions: http://www.pugauthority.com/t10751-daffney-s-defective-walk


Do you know if she's like with dogs off leash? A lot of dogs can be leash reactive. 2 of mine are, when they are together. But they are (mostly) fine when the dogs are in our house, and they are all off leash together. We work on some of the techniques, in the thread (desensitizing them). Training classes are always a good way to go, especially as she is a rescue, and it will help strengthen your bond as well. I am sure the fact that she was attacked by another dog has a lot to do with it. We had a dog adopted out that was great with dogs. In his home, he got attacked by a neighbor's dog, and since then he has been dog aggressive. The home has been working with a trainer, and making progress.

I'm glad she has a committed owner!

Hi and welcome! Sorry you're having problems with your rescue.

We have a fantastic trainer named Karen on the forum and hopefully she'll see your post and give you some advice. Getting a trainer in is probably a good idea, but ask them if they follow someone like Cesar Millan or Victoria Stilwell. If they say Cesar, RUN. If Victoria, welcome them in. Positive training methods are ESSENTIAL.

I saw Victoria work with a dog with these issues once, and her method, once another dog was spied and the reaction started, was to instantaneously turn 180 degrees and walk quickly the other way. Once the dog calmed down she turned and walked back towards the other dog. This was repeated until the offending dog could walk calmy past the other dog (which was being walked by someone involved in the training and was a quiet, calm dog). It took a lot of work and determination to get there! This was on her TV series "It's me or the dog".

Good luck and hopefully Karen will come on and give expert advice.

No advice, other than to run like the wind away from anybody using or recommending Cesar Milan, and that Karen (Pugasaurus) is a great trainer who gives outstanding advice. And bless you for being a committed pugmom. Oh, and welcome to PA!

You need to work with a friend who has a calm well socialized dog. Start by just having her see another dog far away and not reacting. Rec Park would be great, but NOT at the dog park. If she reacts walk the opposite direction like Rona said, let her calm down and head back towards the dog. When she see's a dog and dosen't react she needs to get VERY GOOD treats. Work on getting closer and closer slowly. She will start to associate other dogs, not with getting attacked like she is now, but with really good treats. You have to use someone who is willing to allow their dog to be exposed to crazy for a period of time. Sessions shouldn't last too long at first. Don't overwhlem her.

A member here, Lisa, is a professional dog walker and lives in Long Beach (she's cool too!) and I bet she may be able to help you with a referral or maybe one of the dogs she walks! I also have a high school friend, also named Lisa (ironically) who is a vet tech and I am sure she could help with referrals for trainers, etc. Are you on FB? I could hook you two up though there!

Sounds like she might have some good reasons to be reactive if she has injuries from her life with the other dog.

And the issue with dog to dog aggression that most rescues worry about is the aggression that is unpredictable and uncontrollable. A dog aggressive dog CAN do fine as an only dog and most dog to dog aggression can be worked on--it's just really hard for rescues to do it given that most of us have other dogs (many of them with issues of their own which is why they stayed with us) and are stretched for time, and resources as it is.

So this doesn't sound unworkable as long as you realize that she might not ever be great with other dogs and can live with that. And some dogs, as mentioned, are reactive on leash, but not when unleashed and some are fine with little dogs but not big ones, or hate a certain breed, etc.

Do get some professional help from someone who has a background in positive training and dealing with reactivity in dogs. If you have a decent canine behaviourist in your area, even better. there are some California folks on this forum who may have suggestions.

If you send me your email address, I will happily forward you some information on reactivity in dogs. There are also VERY good books by Patricia McConnell called Feisty Fido and Cautious Canine.

Hi there and welcome to Pug Authority! A trainer sounds like a splendid idea and positive reinforcement methods work fabulously on pugs since they're so food motivated. I third and fourth what everyone else says, stay away from correction based/Cesar Milan training.

Is your dog only dog aggressive while on leash? The two books that Blanche mentioned are fabulous and "Feisty Fido" is a great little booklet that deals specifically with leash aggression. "The Cautious Canine" is a book that gives the handler a good solid foundation for desensitizing a dog-aggressive dog.

The trainer that you hire should be able to help you formulate a good desensitizing program where you will start with dogs far away and gradually (over the period of weeks) your dog should be able to get closer and closer to other dogs until your dog doesn't react.

Feel free to ask any questions and again, welcome!

Thank you for all the quick responses! I just ordered the book "Feisty Fido". Hopefully, it will really help with Beatrice's attitude problem. I am okay with her never being in love with other dogs--I only have her. But I just want the dangerous behavior to stop and I felt like last night was dangerous, since I was bitten. It is no fun to have to keep a constant look-out for other dogs (and stupid owners who dont seem to be able to read her aggressive language and stand there with their mouths open) to prevent her going berserk, or wrestling with her when she is trying to deliver the beat-down on another dog! If I can get her to the point where she only barks or just postures and doesn't act, I will consider it a victory! I am kinda sad we wont be doing dog parks or the dog beach (we have wonderful ones here in my neighborhood) but oh well. I know rescue dogs (or any rescued animal) come with baggage and I guess this is hers. Other than this, she is so wonderful. She loves me, she follows me everywhere and she is fine with strangers and children. I adore her :)

My best friend has a very large, very calm Great Pyrhenees (named Buras LOL). I am thinking he would be the perfect "teacher" for Miss B. Buras should adjust the attitude just by looking down upon Beatrice from his considerable height! Or he could just sit on her if she gets out of line :) Dont worry, I would never use negative training techniques. While I have never had a dog before, I have had house rabbits for many years--of course, you would never hit a bunny, and so I learned patience and consistency. I was appalled by the Caeser Millan video of him kicking dogs--what an a-hole! One will bite him back one day. Thanks for the warning about him!

lbgrrl wrote: I was appalled by the Caeser Millan video of him kicking dogs--what an a-hole! One will bite him back one day. Thanks for the warning about him!

He gets bitten with some regularity and would be bitten more if his reflexes weren't so good. You just never see it on the TV show.....

Beatrice is a very lucky dog and you are going to be a wonderful pug guardian. I think you're going to do just fine with her and be a great addition to our forum.

You've gotten wonderful advice and I have nothing more to add. Just want to congratulate you for being such a dedicated pug mom. Yay for rescuing Beatrice and yay again for having the patience to do what is needed to help her overcome this. Good luck and do let us know how she's doing with her training.

dieselsmom wrote:You've gotten wonderful advice and I have nothing more to add. Just want to congratulate you for being such a dedicated pug mom. Yay for rescuing Beatrice and yay again for having the patience to do what is needed to help her overcome this. Good luck and do let us know how she's doing with her training.

Exactly!

Did you adopt her from a rescue/shelter? If yes you should have been told about the dog aggression and the rescue should have provided you with at least a referral to a behaviorist they work with. Working privately with a trainer/behaviorist is expensive and the rescue/shelter should help allay some of those costs if they were aware of the problem (the rescues I work with wouldn't adopt out an animal in her frame of mind until she'd been evaluated and rehab-ed as well as going to a very experienced caregiver).

I would be very cautious trying to work on this on your own - even with a calm dog as your partner. Chances are you or the other dog's owner are the ones that will be hurt breaking something up. Look to pet places in your area that offer obedience training and see if they offer reactive dog classes (group classes but where dogs like yours are welcome and the dogs are kept far apart during class) or if any of the trainers do private consults. The situation can definitely be remedied (maybe not completely of course) but will take time.

I'd also recommend you make sure that your pug is always in a harness vs. a collar so that she doesn't hurt her trachea straining and you'll have some extra protection so that she can't wriggle free (roman style harness more secure in most cases than a step-in or puppia-style).

And don't resign yourself to not having a social dog - that's a sad, lonely existence especially for a young dog. It will take commitment, patience and of course love like you're already providing. Until you're working with a professional when she reacts during walks just change direction, use lots of little treats when she does something right (practice stopping, sitting) or try a little squirt bottle, a little squirt will take her attention away from what she's doing and you can try to have her sit (give treat), change direction (give treat if she's not still barking/lurching) or just focus on you for a minute while other dog passes (again give treat - sometimes just holding the treat out 'eyes on the prize' style will keep them calm for a bit). Safety is most important and in time she'll relax in her new home, with you as her caregiver, and she'll learn that other dogs don't necessarily mean she has to compete.

I am also a big fan of Victoria Stillwell and her training methods. I remember watching her with a client with several dogs, two of whom would get into a biting/fighting hassle whenever they were together. She had one of the owners work with each dog, getting them used to being near each other. The more reactive dog was given a treat whenever the other dog came into eyesight and the first dog did not start any fuss. Then they were separated. This was done over and over (both dogs were on leash and under the control of the people, so no one was getting bitten or injured). I remember that Victoria said something like "We want them to understand that good things happen when they are quietly together" - she emphasizes very high-demand treats that are ONLY used for training - the dogs didn't get these treats (either cooked chicken or liver, if I recall) at any other time. And she didn't push the dogs into closer proximity until they were comfortable where they were - first they got used to seeing each other through a doorway, then just into the room, then about halfway across the room, then arm's distance from each other, then closer. At the first indication of a flare-up, they were separated (no treats) and went back to where they had been.

If the first dog acted aggressively, the second dog was led away and neither dog got any treat. It took a while, but by the end of the training (actually takes place over a week or two, although it is all shown in the one show) the two dogs were happily sitting side by side, without leashes or any other separation.

It did take a lot of repetition and patience, but it worked. Victoria is very good at using body language to communicate, not yelling. She stays calm. To correct a dog, she usually turns away from it. When rewarding a dog, there is a lot of praise/smiling/and "good dog". She also tailors the rewards to what a particular dog most enjoys - if it likes to run or play or have a special toy, that's the reward. Pugs are so food-oriented that food usually was used with any pugs in the shows that I saw.

Any chance of finding a friend with a good-natured dog who would be willing to be a training partner for you as you work on this behavior? Good luck on working with this.

(someone else has probably mentioned this, but picking the dog up makes it seem more powerful, so you might inadvertently be playing into the dog's aggressive behavior. I'm sure her past history has affected her behavior with other dogs)

Imon wrote:
(someone else has probably mentioned this, but picking the dog up makes it seem more powerful, so you might inadvertently be playing into the dog's aggressive behavior. I'm sure her past history has affected her behavior with other dogs)

This statement right here is something I wish I knew a lot sooner than I did! Every time my two boy pugs would get into a tussle, my husband or I would run and pick one of them up. It seemed like they were safer (out of reach of each other), but so much more escalated, snarling ,etc! I never realized that by picking one up, I was empowering them negatively. Now, if any tussle starts, a loud stern "knock it off!", breaks things up without that same escalation of picking one up.

Of course, physically interfreing does have its place. Obviously if a dog needs to be saved from imminent danger, that is different.

lisamak wrote:Did you adopt her from a rescue/shelter? If yes you should have been told about the dog aggression and the rescue should have provided you with at least a referral to a behaviorist they work with. Working privately with a trainer/behaviorist is expensive and the rescue/shelter should help allay some of those costs if they were aware of the problem (the rescues I work with wouldn't adopt out an animal in her frame of mind until she'd been evaluated and rehab-ed as well as going to a very experienced caregiver).

I did not rescue her from a shelter. She was actually on Craigslist. The people that had her did not want her, and were giving her away to anyone who would take her. They never asked *anything* about me. They just wanted her gone ASAP. God knows where she would have ended up. She was "free" but I have spent over $1000 already on spaying her and treating her skin infection and wounds. I dont mind hiring a behaviorist/trainer. When I read of some of the stuff that some rescued dogs do (tearing up the linoleum, eating a couch, biting kids) I feel pretty lucky. I know we can work through this. She is so worth it! I know, I am not experienced with dogs, but am experienced with animals--and ready to learn whatever I need to know.

I have a long history in rescue, but not with dogs--when I lived in Ohio, I helped establish a chapter of the House Rabbit Society, which rescues unwanted and abandoned rabbits. I helped to foster and place many buns, and so was aware of the pitfalls of picking up a dog from Craigslist. Some of the rabbits had some bad behavior issues, too. The dearest rabbit I ever had (they were all dear, but he was awesome) was a big red bun named Kismet who had a temper to match his red hair. Kiz was so full of attitude, and he bit people when he was picked up or held, so he stayed with me (unadoptable). He would nip you in the butt if you sat on "his" couch and he would climb up on your chest and steal chips as you tried to eat them. He also stole a slice of pizza and got into a glass of wine. He followed me everywhere. I loved him so much! I dont have any buns now--my last, 12 year old Phoenix, passed away in early December. So I know that even the most incorrigible animal can be turned around if you are patient and kind to them (of course, I do know that a "mean" rabbit is not as dangerous as a "mean" dog). Bea is far from incorrigible, she is very loving--just not to other dogs!

I am glad to hear that we might get to be social at some point. I think that would be a lot of fun, and I know there are pug meet-ups here in Long Beach.

Puggered wrote:

dieselsmom wrote:You've gotten wonderful advice and I have nothing more to add. Just want to congratulate you for being such a dedicated pug mom. Yay for rescuing Beatrice and yay again for having the patience to do what is needed to help her overcome this. Good luck and do let us know how she's doing with her training.

Exactly!

I missed this thread....I am usually on top of it, sorry, I'd be lost without this spot!