Dog Aggression: Training vs. Management

I've got a question about Sammy. He's had issues with dog aggression since I've had him-- not all the time, but pretty unpredictable. Sometimes he's fine, sometimes he feels the need to bark his head off at the offending dog, and sometimes he snaps at them if he's too close. No issues at all with people, even toddlers with minimal dog skills-- just with other dogs.

Anyway, I've recently discovered that if I pick Sammy up, holding him like a football, he actually becomes calm, doesn't bark, doesn't freak out, and lets me talk to my friends/neighbors/other dogs. My dilemma, of course, is where do I draw the line between managing his aggression to keep him and other dogs safe vs not wanting to positively reinforce the (usually) impending aggression by picking him up?

Is there a way to combine management (picking him up) with training out the undesired behavior? If not, which side do I fall on?

I have a similar situation with Penny. She's great with people, lousy with other dogs. Especially big dogs. And she does much better if I pick her up, too. And I have the same questions as Ginger.

Gracie is really bad when we encounter other dogs on our walks, though I've noticed she varies from angry-crazy to excited-crazy (there is a slight variation), depending on the dog she encounters. With the neighborhood dogs, we've tried managing it by:
1) when approaching a dog in yard, approaching at a slow to moderate speed
2) when Gracie starts getting excited/angry/etc. (she starts by pulling, then jumping, then breathing hard, then barking like crazy, then screaming and biting - clearly not a good situation) - so, at the first signs of extra interest...
3) stop and make her sit
4) once she calms down, we move forward a few steps, and sit again.
5) repeat until we've managed to pass the house without freak out. Sometimes, this means we need to have her back up a bit, and sit, and then try approaching again.

This has had mixed results. Its still tough with dogs she doesn't recognize, like those that live on streets we don't often walk. BUT, it has been amazing with the dogs on our street, which we walk up and down a few times/day. She's now able to generally walk by the spaniel and the corgi and ignore them, and she greets the scottish terrier and shih tzu with joy but not meltdown. So we are making some progress. I would welcome any ideas!

Of course, kids on skateboards, school buses, and garbage trucks must all die painful deaths, she has declared.

I get all the DFW rescue nut jobs. Dogs that hate other dogs or people. And training can make a huge difference. Eli was my worse one, he hated both people and dogs. I got him lots better through desensitizing him and classic counter-conditioning.

There's some fabulous resources out there if you're interested in learning more. It takes time and work, but it pays off, I don't have to worry about taking these dogs on simple outings. Eli still needs to be Aced up for a vet visit, but Cornell is tons better as is Bill Bailey and they don't need to be medicated.

I've learned the hard way that management alone will fail at some point and just a thought, but he might be acting calmer when you p;ick him up because of the pressure you're putting on him.

Many reactive dogs do better wearing a backpack and when they get nervous sometimes it helps to let them stand between your legs with you putting gentle pressure on both sides.

And there's also a tremendous trust issue with many reactive dogs. When we're early in training, I'll never put my dog in a situation that he can't handle. If he hates people, I make a big deal about making sure the people stay away and I'll do the same thing if the dog is aggressive towards dogs, making a big deal about not letting the dogs get too close. The dog starts to understand that you are his protector and leader and will start to relax.

Because usually at the root of aggression is fear and many dogs learn that being aggressive works well, you've got to show them there's another way.

Sorry for the long answer. Let me know if you want more info, there's some great books out there.

Ginger, in my opinion (for what it is worth) you are doing the right thing by picking him up. Sometimes we forget that aggression can be a temperament issue and it just can't be changed (although you can find ways to deal with it in a positive way). Where as other times it is behavioral. ALL dogs can be good ones, but all dogs also have buttons that set them off at times. Personally, if Sammy were my dog, I would do just as you are doing. By picking him up you are giving him security and telling him that it is ok. As for the training.... when it comes to aggression it is always best to have a trainer come in and work on YOU not the dog. Trainers can see what makes a dogs mind tick and give you the instructions needed to correct it. As said above getting Sammy in the sit position on a tight lead will offer you great control in touch situations. I am not sure if you have Sammy on a harness or collar, but you may want to look at different training collars that offer a bit more control. I won't mention them here as many would think I have fallen off my rocker! LOL I have seen some Cesar Milan shows on cable from time to time. He calls dogs with aggressions "Red Zone" dogs. It sounds like you have a Yellow Zone! (I just made that up). BTW, I "love" Cesar Milan.....I just love the way he handles dogs...he's hot!

I would love some book recommendations! Thanks!

pugasaurus wrote:I get all the DFW rescue nut jobs. ...
Sorry for the long answer. Let me know if you want more info, there's some great books out there.

lawpug wrote:I would love some book recommendations! Thanks!

pugasaurus wrote:I get all the DFW rescue nut jobs. ...
Sorry for the long answer. Let me know if you want more info, there's some great books out there.

A good quick and dirty booklet is "The Cautious Canine" by Patricia McConnell

An extensive (and expensive) book is "Aggression In Dogs" by Brenda Aloff. It was $50 several years ago when I got it but worth it.

And one that I found helpful is "The Canine Aggression Workbook" by James O'Heare.

Ceasar Milan is nice to look at, but I'm not real nuts about some of his training techniques, and his technique of flooding the dog can actually cause more harm than good. And sometimes I think people forget that he's a TV show so you only see his successes. I get to see his failures.

Sarina is right in recommending getting a good trainer to help you. One that uses positive methods. Pugs are usually so easy to train because they are so greedy and when I get a new dog to work with, he thinks he's died and gone to heaven because he gets so many treats. Never underestimate the power of treats to help you reach a goal.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the book recommendations! Kimchi is MUCH better than she was 4 months ago, but when she becomes afraid or intimidated, she becomes terribly unpredictable and wants to eat whatever is intimidating her (usually a man or another dog). I know she will keep improving with time and her continued feeling of security, but the moments when she goes ballistic are terrible. The other thing that has been happening is that she get Thurston riled up and now HE is showing occasions of aggression - something he NEVER did. The worst is when they both act aggressively then turn on each other.

I actually have done the "distraction" method of getting them to stop by saying "treat". The psychology seems odd to me, but it has worked so far. I just need to get over this next hump and see more progress. Kimchi has come a LONG way and is a total sweetheart 90% of the time. But, that other 10% is a killer!

its soo weird b/c when me and honey and my boyfriend go on a walk which is almost every night... as we pass the houses that have dogs honey starts kinda like barking but growling at the same time... its so weird how she know where the neighborhood dogs live.... even if the dogs are out side...

shes getting better but still needs some work though...ive tried to pick her up so maybe shell calm down a little bit with the barking/growling but she doesnt calm down she just struggles to get out of my arms.....

so i stopped picking her up to TRY and calm her down with the barking/growling and shes gettin better i just let it go until we pass the house....

but when we pass a dog and its owner walking of the street she doesnt stop til like 3 mins after the already passed us....

Ugh.

Kimchi was being such a good girl at the Grand Opening Party tonight until my Asst Manager picked her up and cuddled her too close. She bit her on her cheek.

It's time for some professional help or she's going to have to stay at home. She's come SOOOOO far, but it's just not far enough.

Not Afraid wrote:Ugh.

Kimchi was being such a good girl at the Grand Opening Party tonight until my Asst Manager picked her up and cuddled her too close. She bit her on her cheek.

It's time for some professional help or she's going to have to stay at home. She's come SOOOOO far, but it's just not far enough.

I sometimes think we expect an awful lot of our dogs.

Kimchi has made super progress. But swooping down and picking up a dog to kiss him or her or cuddle too close is really not generally something dogs enjoy at the best of times.

I know pugs have been bred to be companion dogs and as such they are cuddlier than most, but cuddling and hugs are absolutely a primate thing, not a canine one. We are asking a hell of a lot of our dogs to tolerate hugs and sometimes it is hard for us to understand that, because to us a hug is so friendly. To a dog it is not; it is restrictive and unnatural. They have to learn that from a human it is not a threat.

Some may never really tolerate it. Toddy will, Snifter won't. If I pick Snifter up and kiss him he will put up with it without aggression but when I put him back down he has a tantrum.

So don't be too disheartened if Kimchi seems to be making slow progress. It's a big ask.

P.S. Sorry this reply is really late; I missed a lot in the last couple of months of last year and am just catching up now.

Bella, thanks for replying. It's not too late and it is interesting to see what has happened since then. Kimchi HAS come very far. I picked her at the airport, fresh from a series of home in South Korea just a little over 6 months ago. Since that time, she has made leaps and bounds (but she's not completely trustworthy by any means), but the difference is remarkable. There really is a good little girl hiding under that "don't mess with me" demeanor. When I think of what must have happened to her to become that way, it breaks my heart. I hope that in a year from now, I will look at these issues as things of the past.