Unprovoked Aggression (Long and non-pug)

So I'm just going to start from the beginning. When we first brought Kinley home 3 years ago Einstein attacked her. We had NEVER seen him so much as even growl at another dog and he had been to dog parks, dog events, and lived with his brother Mack, Genie and Dora for years at this point. We chalked it up to her coming onto his territory and even though we introduced them outside of the house, maybe we did something wrong? Anyway, for more than a year we lived our lives keeping them separated at all times. Slowly we got them accustomed to being together and for about a year now we've all been able to coexist peacefully.

Until about 2 weeks ago. John was gone on a business trip and for no apparent reason Einstein went after Kinley again. Then it happened again last night (John is out of town again). There was no apparent trigger. One minute we were all sitting around the living room and the next Einstein had Kinley pinned to the ground. This episode was worse than the last and I had to physically pull him off of her. She never fights back, and is a very submissive and shy dog by nature. I crated Einstein after the episode and gave her a good check over and she was not hurt thank God. I just don't know what to do. How do I bring a trainer in to help us stop the aggression if I have NO IDEA what is causing it and it's a behavior that I only see once in a blue moon? I guess I'm afraid of having someone come in and being like "I don't see a problem here."

Also I have no idea if this matters but Kinley was attacked by a dog at her foster home before she came to us and ended up having to have stitches. Kinley is 4 and outweighs Stein by about 20lbs (she is 100 lbs and he is 80lbs). Einstein just turned 12. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

I think if you get a good trainer, they will be able to figure out triggers, even if they don't see it happen. Sometimes the signs are lot more subtle than what we see with an untrained eye. Maybe it has something to do with John being gone and the dynamics of the home changing? The other thing I'd suggest too, maybe he's not feeling well for some reason? Good luck, I know with bigger dogs, it's even scarier to see fights or aggression.

Amber, I am guessing, but at Stein's age and considering his size, it may very well be a response to some type of dementia or aging. Is he maybe loosing his sight? Dogs can get more reactive if their sight or hearing is changing. He could just be startled more easily and imagining a threat. Junior, my Bullmastiff got a little crankier as he aged and although he never took it out on us or the pugs, he was less tolerant of strangers and people coming to the door. We had some furniture delivered and they thought after they talked to my hubby outside that they could just walk in the house without us letting them in and Junior quickly changed their minds about that. He chased them both back down the driveway and they dived into the back of the truck. It was hilarious....

TNPUGMOMOF3 wrote:Amber, I am guessing, but at Stein's age and considering his size, it may very well be a response to some type of dementia or aging.

That is what I was going to ask. If you haven't already done it, a geriatric check-up might be in order.

Maryjo wrote:

TNPUGMOMOF3 wrote:Amber, I am guessing, but at Stein's age and considering his size, it may very well be a response to some type of dementia or aging.

That is what I was going to ask. If you haven't already done it, a geriatric check-up might be in order.

Yeah he JUST had his check-up in September, but that was before this started. Is there anything that can be done to help it if it is dementia? Medication or something?

Amber wrote:

Maryjo wrote:

TNPUGMOMOF3 wrote:Amber, I am guessing, but at Stein's age and considering his size, it may very well be a response to some type of dementia or aging.

That is what I was going to ask. If you haven't already done it, a geriatric check-up might be in order.

Yeah he JUST had his check-up in September, but that was before this started. Is there anything that can be done to help it if it is dementia? Medication or something?

I do think there are medications that could help. Does he seem disoriented or anxious? Restless? Do you notice if he is hesitant walking around cause he may have trouble seeing?

I think everyone is right, I'd start with a vet visit first.

pugasaurus wrote:I think everyone is right, I'd start with a vet visit first.

Yep. If it is Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, there is medication (Anipryl) and I can send you a bunch of info on CCD (AKA CDS). Bob had it, Maude had it. Candace's Salvador has it now. The Anipryl can buy you some good time, but it's not a cure.

northernwitch wrote:

pugasaurus wrote:I think everyone is right, I'd start with a vet visit first.

Yep. If it is Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, there is medication (Anipryl) and I can send you a bunch of info on CCD (AKA CDS). Bob had it, Maude had it. Candace's Salvador has it now. The Anipryl can buy you some good time, but it's not a cure.

Blanche - can you send me that too? Thanks! My email is tiararenee@msn.com

I can post them and maybe Amanda can make them stickies......

ETA: I've posted two articles on CCD in the Medical and Well-Being section.

TNPUGMOMOF3 wrote:
I do think there are medications that could help. Does he seem disoriented or anxious? Restless? Do you notice if he is hesitant walking around cause he may have trouble seeing?

Restlessness is the only thing I've noticed. He won't lay in one position more than about 30 mins anymore but I just assumed he was having to change positions due to his arthritis. Now I feel like a horrible dog mom for thinking he was just being hateful.

northernwitch wrote:I can post them and maybe Amanda can make them stickies......

ETA: I've posted two articles on CCD in the Medical and Well-Being section.

Thanks Blanche. I'm going there now.

And now I'm sitting here bawling. He started having accidents in the house about 6 months ago. Again, I just thought he was getting older. That same night he attacked Kinley he had peed on a house plant just a few hours before. Damn. Guess I'll be calling the vet in the morning.

Amber wrote:And now I'm sitting here bawling. He started having accidents in the house about 6 months ago. Again, I just thought he was getting older. That same night he attacked Kinley he had peed on a house plant just a few hours before. Damn. Guess I'll be calling the vet in the morning.

Hon, don't beat yourself up. If you've never seen CCD, you wouldn't necessarily put it all together. It was someone else who suggested to me that that might be what's going on with Bob.

The Anipryl isn't cheap, I'll warn you. But I have seen some pretty remarkable results. It will take time to hit therapeutic levels.

northernwitch wrote:

Amber wrote:And now I'm sitting here bawling. He started having accidents in the house about 6 months ago. Again, I just thought he was getting older. That same night he attacked Kinley he had peed on a house plant just a few hours before. Damn. Guess I'll be calling the vet in the morning.

Hon, don't beat yourself up. If you've never seen CCD, you wouldn't necessarily put it all together. It was someone else who suggested to me that that might be what's going on with Bob.

The Anipryl isn't cheap, I'll warn you. But I have seen some pretty remarkable results. It will take time to hit therapeutic levels.

Thanks Blanche. I really don't know what I would do without you and everyone on this board

I was thinking about this last night and my suggestion was going to be to rule out a medical change first, but I see that others have posted some good information about that. Hopefully it is not CCD and maybe just something else. Sometimes these senior's bodies can change in an instant or sometimes little changes add up to thinking that it is age.

Ok I called and made him an appointment. Watching our pups age is so hard

Don't be sad Amber. It's much harder with big dogs, in my opinion. They are not "on" you like the pugs are. It takes me longer to figure out that something is wrong with Odin, and Junior before that. They also decline very quickly, and at least I have found that it happens in stages. My bullmastiff was obviouly aging and he moved slower, etc., but near the end it was obvious that something else was going on. He was my baby and I loved him dearly, but with him he was fine and having a great time with us on New Year's Eve in the nighborhood with our friends and on the 2nd he went and layed down in the yard and could not get back up. It killed me, but I knew it was time. No other warnings.

Just try to make him as comfortable as possible for as long as possible and if he wants to be a little cranky at his age, really he's earned it. I hope meds give him some relief and make him happier longer. Call me if you want to chat...

Thanks Marci

((((Amber)))) I don't have any advice, just good thoughts and hugs for you.

Another thing to have the vet test for low thyroid - you need to do a FULL panel - T4, free T4, T3, free T3, TgAA (then T4AA and T3AA later if warranted). Aging may exacerabate the problem as the thyroid function wanes.

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/medical-causes-of-aggression-in-dogs/page1.aspx
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2562

pugpillow wrote:Another thing to have the vet test for low thyroid - you need to do a FULL panel - T4, free T4, T3, free T3, TgAA (then T4AA and T3AA later if warranted). Aging may exacerabate the problem as the thyroid function wanes.

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/medical-causes-of-aggression-in-dogs/page1.aspx
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2562

Funny you should say this, my two oldest are now on thyroid meds. Definitely get his thyroid checked!

pugasaurus wrote:

pugpillow wrote:Another thing to have the vet test for low thyroid - you need to do a FULL panel - T4, free T4, T3, free T3, TgAA (then T4AA and T3AA later if warranted). Aging may exacerabate the problem as the thyroid function wanes.

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/medical-causes-of-aggression-in-dogs/page1.aspx
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2562

Funny you should say this, my two oldest are now on thyroid meds. Definitely get his thyroid checked!

Yep--ditto on this and I should have thought to mention it since I have a dog on thyroid meds who does get aggressive when his thyroid is out of whack.

Amber, I am sorry you are going through this, you are an awesome pug mama, do not beat yourself up please.

Thank you all again. I thought they checked his Thyroid when we were there last month but I will to ask them to check again.

Also one (or maybe both, I'm blanking at the moment) sugested feeding a heavily plant based diet? Any suggestions? He's currently on Taste of the Wild and I know that is high protein.

Amber wrote: I thought they checked his Thyroid when we were there last month but I will to ask them to check again.

Often as a matter of routine, they will only check the T4 and T3 (and TSH which is useless) which doesn't tell enough. But before you go to the expense of testing again, have a look at the lab results to see just which tests they did do. And make sure that he's tested 4-6 hours after his breakfast.